For CCW, isn't a revolver a very good choice"

[Adam Helmer]

I have many, maybe far too many, semi-auto pistols as well as many more revolvers, but in gravest extreme we all do what we "grooved" under pressure. As kids, we all shot cap guns and water pistols so double action is second nature to us old guys and revolvers are just fine for that grooved, and learned, action.

The current generation of semi-auto pistols with decocking levers, safety switches and such like gizmos make a simple trigger pull a more convoluted exercise in mental gymnastics when time may be short. I personally know of some cases of folks dying because they forgot to "sweep" off a safety switch on a new gun. It appears a new semi-auto went to home defense duty and far too few rounds were expended in training to "groove" the new gun.

Bottom line, the new gun was not "grooved" to the point of 100% reliability. I heard at one training course on defensive handgun useage that it took 3,000 to 5,000 repititions to make it a natural event to get a gun into operation under gravest extreme. Well, my capgun and water pistol "firings" have me in good stead for useage of my S&W M65 in gravest extreme.

Adam

[BILLY D.]

I concur wholeheartedly.

One other factor you did not mention was in close quarters if you press a semi auto against a B/G's body you can knock the pistol out of battery and end up with a firearm that will not fire. A revolver will always work.

another good reason is in case of a jam. With a semi auto you have to rack the slide or drop the magazine. and/or both. With a revolver you just keep cycling, pressing the trigger.

Revolvers take a lot less education to shoot well.

Your reference to the new generation of pistols is a good one. They have far too many baubles, bangles and beads as far as I'm concerned. People can/have been trained to use them well, but it's a mind bending long process of training.

I did carry 1911's during two endeavors in my lifetime and they served me well. I'm still here ain't I? But I am happier with a wheel gun.

Just my 2¢.

[Adam Helmer]

Billy D,

I like your input. I am tired of decocking levers, safety switches that work UP or DOWN or ambidexterous and whatnot. In a hot corner, it has to be simple and "grooved" to "Get-er-Done."

Yes, if a person shoves a semi-auto into a BG's torso, the hammer may not fall if the trigger is pulled. A revolver would not care and just go "bang."

I like revolvers because they are simple, rugged, proven and just go off like a water pistol when the trigger is pulled and one can use either hand to do the do.

Adam

[gregarat]

Great points. My snubby is my primary daytime carry arm. Im even thinking of geting a Deringer for "deep cover" carry, and as a backup for my semi auto. If someone feels handicap cause their handgun doesnt have gizzmos like tritium night sights, or whatever. Their only real handicap is a lack of practice/training. Myself, I only care if the firearm goes "bang" every time!


To be honest, I have alot of faith in my Glock, so I am in the "semi auto club". But I totaly realise that hi-cap semmi autos, does not have an advantage in a self defence shooting over a wheel gun. Seriously, how many armed BGs can I realy handle at once? Heres what Lieutenant Colonel Cooper has to say about high caps. This also suports the argument for wheelguns

“It has never been clear to me why increased magazine capacity in a defensive pistol is particularly choice. The bigger the magazine the bigger the gun, and the bigger the gun the harder it is to get hold of for people with small hands. And what, pray, does one need all those rounds for? How many lethal antagonists do you think you are going to be able to handle? Once when Bruce Nelson was asked by a suspect if the thirteen-round magazine in the P35 was not a big advantage, Bruce's answer was, "Well, yes, if you plan to miss a lot." The highest score I know of at this time achieved by one man against a group of armed adversaries was recorded in (of all places) the Ivory Coast! There, some years ago, a graduate student of mine laid out five goblins, with four dead and one totaled for the hospital. Of course there is the episode of Alvin York and his eight, but there is some dispute about that tale. (If you read it over very carefully you will see what I mean.) Be that as it may, I see no real need for a double column magazine. It is all the rage, of course, and like dual air bags, it is a popular current sales gimmick.”

BTW: What do you guys mean by "grooved"?

[Jack]

I sure agree that simple and foolproof is good
I do think that what you get used to, and practice with, is important.
I was never able to shoot DA worth a d***, so DA autos don't appeal to me.
What is natural for me is a safety that pushes down into the 'off' position, like the 1911, P35, etc. All my autos, even the 22, have a safety that pushes down for off.
True that pushing an auto into someone may take it out of battery (if the safety is off), but it seems to me that if you're worried about that, as a citizen, you're too d*** close!

[Ruddyduck]

Shoot what you practice with and are comfortable with. A revolver is a great choice if that is what one likes. Sure I grew up with cap pistols etc also but have a bear paw for a hand ad prefer the grip of a auto over a revolver for C.C. I whole heartily agree with the statement of high cap and "you plan to miss alot". That's why a single stack 45acp is my choice. Being a southpaw I had various 1911's but never comfortable with them.
I carry a Ruger 97d model. Double action for first round and single for following with ,gasp , a decocking lever. My pistol has a good or better a double action pull as any revolver out of the I've ever owned or shot and about a 2lb let off on single.

[8X56MS]

I carry both revolvers and semi autos. Both work well for me.

[Rocky Raab]

gregarat, to me "grooved" means "worn in" to the muscle memory state.

In other words, when my mind is stunned by the sudden attack/need to shoot, my muscles will know EXACTLY what to do - on their own.

There won't be a time for "Lessee here, what gun is this today? Is it the one with the DOWN safety and the single-action trigger pull, or the one with the UP decocker and the single/double pull? Or is it the one with the safety trigger and no side safety? Hmmm did I remember to rack one into the chamber? Did I remember to put a magazine in?"

(Rocky adjusts the Charter Arms Bulldog .44 digging into his right kidney a bit)

Or is it the never-fail, no added switches, puts 'em down right NOW big bore revolver?

[gregarat]

Gotcha Rocky.

I shoot my Glock the most, I have alot of confedence with it, I get fast target acquisition, oh yeah none of this to worry about

Is it the one with the DOWN safety and the single-action trigger pull, or the one with the UP decocker and the single/double pull? Or is it the one with the safety trigger and no side safety?

[jmarriott]

One thing that has not been mentioned is the auto will leave shell cases in the area. Not really a problem with true Self defense situation. The Lawyers might ask why it took 14 shot's to defend yourself with a high cap auto. Look at the new york city case in which a (not so) bad guy took 60 rounds from the police.

There may be some uses better not discussed on this board in which leaving fingerprinted shell cases laying around may not be wise.

My carry gun is a Rossi 2 1/2 inch 6 shot 357 mag. Dependable, Stainless, at 165 dollars in nealy mint (but fired 12 times) would not break the bank if stolen, accurate, and should provide a one shot stopper according to most accounts i have read.

One thing in the auto's favor that has not been mentioned is nighttime shooting. I was called to my mother in law's house to dispatch a skunk in the garbage. The quickest and only loaded gun available was the 357. After one round and the resulting muzzle flash of a full powered 357 in the dark left me without the ability of quick followup shots. A 9mm or 45 would have muzzle blast also. But the nature of the auto over the wheelgun with the cylinder gap and the smaller 2 1/2 inch barrel over most auto's of at least 3 inchs is something to consider also.

I now carry a deadly but milder 38 round in the gun most of the time.

[Gil Martin]

My significant other just learned to shoot and got a CCW from Lancaster County. We went to a local gun shop and did some shopping. A local, with limited knowledge, said get her a semi-auto. No way! She left the premises with a Smith & Wesson Model 36 2-inch blued .38 Special. She shoots it well and carries it everywhere. Revolvers instill confidence.

Small semi-autos are fine carry guns for experienced shooters. New shooters are less confused by a traditional revolver which is simply point and shoot. Just the idle thoughts of an idle fellow. All the best...
Gil

[Contenderizer]

The replies above all seem to be right on the mark. The only subject not mentioned is the relative ease of cleaning a revolver as compared to a semi. Proper gun hygiene is mandatory with the semi-auto; a little less so with the wheel gun. But, in either case its a fact of life for all of us, especially so if you carry in an ankle holster. Over the years a revolver can save a lot of time at the cleaning bench.

It also troubles me to think of the number of newbies who purchase a semi-auto and are sent home by the gunshop with a box of cheaper target loads and a second box of ammo for self defense. The newbie may find the target loads to fire and cycle just fine, but I'm guessing they often never fire the pricier self defense loads!

[MacD37]

Originally posted by Adam Helmer
I have many, maybe far too many, semi-auto pistols as well as many more revolvers, but in gravest extreme we all do what we "grooved" under pressure. As kids, we all shot cap guns and water pistols so double action is second nature to us old guys and revolvers are just fine for that grooved, and learned, action.

The current generation of semi-auto pistols with decocking levers, safety switches and such like gizmos make a simple trigger pull a more convoluted exercise in mental gymnastics when time may be short. I personally know of some cases of folks dying because they forgot to "sweep" off a safety switch on a new gun. It appears a new semi-auto went to home defense duty and far too few rounds were expended in training to "groove" the new gun.

Bottom line, the new gun was not "grooved" to the point of 100% reliability. I heard at one training course on defensive handgun useage that it took 3,000 to 5,000 repititions to make it a natural event to get a gun into operation under gravest extreme. Well, my capgun and water pistol "firings" have me in good stead for useage of my S&W M65 in gravest extreme.

Adam

Of course what you want to use is a personal thing, and your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. However you have some misconceptions on what is needed for most of the newer simi-auto pistols of today!

Take a pistol like the Astra A-75 9mm, or 40 S&W. It is a double action pistol with no safety as one usually considers a safety on a pistol like the 1911 colt clones. The A-75, and like double action simi-autos with a decocking lever are the safest type of firearm to carry with a round in the chamber at all times, with the hammer down.

When it is time to rock& roll one simply un-holsters the weapon, point, and pull the trigger, exactly the same as a double action revolver. The pistol fires, and from that round on the pistol is single action, because the pistol re-cocks it's self after each shot. When the pistol runs dry, the slide stays back, and all that is needed to get the pistol back in action is to drop a magazine, and replace it with a full one, drop the slide, and rock& roll for another 8 shots. Some others have 17-1 capacity, so in most cases no re-load is needed at all.

The only time a decocker is used is if you fire the gun, and don't need to fire it again, then the de-cocker lever is pushed, dropping the hammer without fireing the pistol, placeing the pistol back in double-action mode again, and safe to carry.

The three big problems with a revolver are not enough capacity before haveing to re-load, and the things are ver slow to reload.

No2 is if you get wounded in a firefight, on your weak side, and must change hands to continue, the revolver is damn difficult to re-load with only one hand, and even harder if that is not your strong side hand. With a double action simi-auto one can carry several extra magazines, very easily conciealed, and can be easily re-loaded with either hand.

No3 In darkness, the revolver like a 357Mag makes a very blinding cylinder, and muzzle flash, that cannot be modified, and the muzzle flash of a simi-auto is nowhere as blinding as even a small revolver.

It takes no time at all to become accustomed to a double action de-cocker pistol! One good visit to the range, and a couple of 50 round boxes of ammo and you got it.

All just an old 72 yr old opinion, but one who has been legally armed for most of my life, with all kinds of firearms, and none of them are magic, but some systems are far better than others for combat! My choice, if I have one at the time, will allways be a high capacity double action simi-auto, with a de-cocking lever!

[Adam Helmer]

MacD37,

Welcome to the forum.

When my agency went from revolvers to semi-autos, we went to the Glock 17 or 19, agent's choice. The Glocks were chosen because it was similiar to the DA revolver-no safeties and you point and shoot.

I was the firearms instructor (Firearms Coordinator) for all 100 agents in the 6 New England states and I qualified them twice a year for 10 years. A factor you did not address is the individual mindset of the handgun shooter using a DA revolver or semi-auto; many folks do not "get it" with just a few boxes of ammo. Our transitional training was 750 rounds per agent. Even then many of the agents were not gun savvy.

Another factor is the big magazine-many folks spray and pray. Statistically most gun fights are over long before a DA revolver runs out of ammo. I still think a DA revolver is a very good choice in 2008. Be well.

Adam

[MacD37]

Originally posted by Adam Helmer
MacD37,

Welcome to the forum.

When my agency went from revolvers to semi-autos, we went to the Glock 17 or 19, agent's choice. The Glocks were chosen because it was similiar to the DA revolver-no safeties and you point and shoot.

I was the firearms instructor (Firearms Coordinator) for all 100 agents in the 6 New England states and I qualified them twice a year for 10 years. A factor you did not address is the individual mindset of the handgun shooter using a DA revolver or semi-auto; many folks do not "get it" with just a few boxes of ammo. Our transitional training was 750 rounds per agent. Even then many of the agents were not gun savvy.

Another factor is the big magazine-many folks spray and pray. Statistically most gun fights are over long before a DA revolver runs out of ammo. I still think a DA revolver is a very good choice in 2008. Be well.

Adam

Very well put Adam, and you are quite correct about training a person who who has "0" handgun background, is far different from most who apply for a Concealed handgun license. In a state like Texas if you have a malfunction, or fail to opperate the handgun you are qualifying with you simply do not get the license.
That means you need to know how to use your handgun before you apply, because you must diminstrate proficiency with your firearm befor you can get a license!


The gun fight being over "MOST" times before a revolver is dry, may apply MOST of the time, but what happens when it Isnt? The cases where a person has to reload is far and away more likely with a cop than with a civilian. You being a trainer for police departments, you know as well as I do that the new cop is rarely a person with a firearms background before applying for a police job. Many have to be threatened with suspension to get them to qualify each time it is mandated, and many long time police couldn't hit the walls of a barn from the inside with the doors closed. This is the reason that once a fire fight starts with cops, and perps shooting at each other, bullets fly in every dirrection, and re-loads are certainly needed. This is because the police opperate on the same prencible as the military, fill the airspace with bullets, and hope something gets hit. Accuracy doesn't count, and if one firearm jams, or runs dry, there are still the rest of the police or soldiers to hold position while the firearm is cleared, or re-loaded. With the civilian, it is usually one on one, and there is noone to take up the slack while you fumble with reloading a revolver, especially the little five shot snubbies most want to carry. The simi-auto with even a low capacity magazine is more of a guarentee of not haveing to re-load at all, and is a guarentee that it is far quicker for the person that does need to reload.

All I'm saying the needs of a civilian/homeowner are far different than for a policeman. The recent rash of home invasions require the home owner to engage three or four perps at once, with only himself to pop them before they collectively shoot him. The home owner with a six shot firearm is in real trouble in that sittuation.

The tital of this forum is CONCEALED CARRY which, to me, denotes CIVILIAN, because most police carry openly! This to me is a suggestion that folks that are of the mind set that they should defend themselves, and their families,and home, and are applying for a concealed carry permit, are usually not unfamiliar with the basics for firearm use. Most young police kadets are usually unfamiliar with firearms, especially in the large communities of the Eastern USA, where most consider any gun to be evil. I've seen, even seasoned cops fumble endlessly with a firearm taken for a perp, trying to unload it, pointing it at everyone in sight in the process. I'd say on every police department, there are a few like you, who understand firearms, and are amoung the handfull I would feel safe to back my play in a firefight. On the street, or in your home, you are alone, and the revolver is better than a prayer, but is, IMO, far inferior to a well designed simi-auto with a high capacity magazine!

All this is simply a long winded exercize to say I disagree, though I do carry revolvers at times, I simply do not think they are as good choice as a well made, and designed simi-auto for self defense! The one place I find the double action revolver to be far superior to any simi-auto is for large bear protection. I do a lot of hunting, and fishing in Alaska around very large Coastal brown bears, and the big double action revolver can be chambered for far more powerful cartridges than most simi-autos. For the city, or the highway, give me a simi-auto, and I prefere 40 SW, or 45ACP as a chambering. In a vevolver I perfere at least a 357 Mag.

No disrespect to anyone, I just simply disagree!