DG Stopping Rifle - Double vs Bolt

[PhilLozano]

Stopping rifles and cartridges.

Stoppers get all the "Press" but the least amount of the use.

Regarding Stoppers, I have and have used both, a Bolt Action and a Double.

Which is better ?

If anyone has any thoughts regarding the use of these rifles and cartridges, we can get the topic going.

What do you like, Double or Bolt ? What cartridge ? What makes one better than the other in "ending" the deal with a dangerous animal ?

What cartridge would you choose and why ?

Let me know your choices.

Best regards,
Phil

[Hi Ball]

Phil.........I have always used bolt guns mostly to hunt with while growing up and it carried on after I got older. Uncle Sam introduced me to the M1-Garand (semi-auto) and the M-14 which was a couple steps above the Garand and could fire fully auto.

I tried a double gun twice upon a time and could never seem to get down the idea of reloading it fast enough to suit my intended goals. I also thought that carrying something that heavy (rifle weighed in at close to 14 pounds) would wear yours truly out after a day or two in the hot African sun, making ones arms feel like spaghetti towards sundown.

I'll stay with my model 70 Winchesters and my ability and confidence level to use them with great success. I have a full battery of those Safari type rifles ranging from the famed .375 H&H, upwards including the tried and true .458 Win mag, and a custom .475 caliber up to a 510 caliber. I'll leave the double guns for those wealthy PH's of African glory!

[PhilLozano]

Mr. Hi Ball,

I was not getting at what you would carry so much, as to what action type you would choose and what makes a 'Stopping' cartridge.

You sort of answered it.

I guess you would chose a Bolt gun, not sure which cartridge.

Is rifle weight, not being able to reload after 2 shots fast enough for your piece of mind and the cost, the basis for your choice ?

What would you choose for a cartridge ?

Where do 'Stopping' cartridges start ? (not speaking of what will kill the animal, Bell shot Elephants with a 7mm Mauser, does not make it a stopper).

Where do they start, what is enough, what is a bit better etc.

More than raw power come into the formula, I think.

Like to hear your thoughts.

I will post my choices in a few days.

Perhaps the cartridge question should be a seperate topic. I will make a new post, if the interest is there, or someone else might do the same.

By the way, I have a nice Westley Richards Double, and I am so far from wealthy, I cannot even see the 'W' ! LOL

Best,
Phil

[pomoxis]

It also depends on what you are use to shooting and if you want to use a scope. A double with open sights will limit your ranges and if you are on the long side of 40 you may have trouble changing your focus from your back sight front sight to target. If the buffalo is grazing on your shoe laces that problem is solved, at 50 yards it is more of a problem.

If you practice working a bolt action you can put mutiple shots on target in short order. If I had to buy a new rifle and could not buy a .375 H&H I would be tempted by the .416 Rigby because it is a clasic Arican caliber. For a modern cartridge a .458 Lott would be another good choice because in a pinch you can fire a .458 Win.

If I won the lottery and was going after a Grand Safari with elephant on the list I would pick the .458 Lott and carry 450 grain solids.

I need to buy a few lottery tickets

[Darkwolf]

You and me both Pomoxis....

The concept of the immediate follow-up shot seems to be the clincher to the professional hunters I've seen or read about, many of whom seem to favour doubles. The idea seems to be that when they come to bear, it's a charging critter at swiftly decreasing range so they don't need a scope or the third shot so much because they only have time for two, or at least they'd trade the idea for that quick one-two snap shot right up the nose...

STOPPING cartridge? I'd be tempted to say starting at the .375, but this is life insurance... so there really isn't any such thing as overkill. Heavy side of the .400's and well into the .500's seem to be the order of the day. I've heard of a self-defense shot on a Somali Elephant with a .270 and a reversed bullet (solid-end first)... but that's a Hail-Mary play. A .223 would technically drop a charging buff right through the central cortex.... But a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Winchester would probably be a lot more assuring if you had ground-shaking, adrenaline rush, closing distance... If the bullet smashed in just off-center, it's a lot more likely to do the job enough to let you live.

Actual caliber? Like grizzly medicine. The heaviest you can accurately and physically shoot.


Theoretically for me? As in, "Welcome to Fantasy Island, Bwana Darkwolf"?

.416 Rigby double with some damn heavy solids... As expensive as a Spanish castle and almost as heavy... But tried-and-true matched with all the above would at least be the factor... and some nostalgic sense too.


Reality? A bolt-action, scoped magazine rifle in .375 would probably be in my hands at the wet-a$$ hour. I can afford it, handle the cartridge and it would be the choice for the neophyte Nimrud I would be.... which is why heavy .600 Nitro Express-double toting PH's are legally mandatory for us.




Just as a weird nostalgia question, how would Teddy Rooseveldt's .405 Winchester rate as a stopper? Or as a client's hunting cartridge for some of the african medium-heavys by the modern perpective? Realistic hunting rifle or lever-action spray-and-pray?

[M.T. Pockets]

I have no experience with any hunting in Africa, or dangerous game at all so take this into consideration.

Is there one "stopper" gun that would be best for all 5 ? I remember Elmer Keith writing about a PH that carried a sawed off shotgun loaded with buckshot when he went after wounded leopards. Good for leopards, poor choice for the ones with hoofs. Nothing very glamorous about a shotgun though, especially in Africa.

I'm sure each situation is different. Personally, I'd prefer a double because I've seen people short throw a bolt action and jam it up. Without debating controlled round feed, I've seen bolt actions fail to cycle more than once. Cartridge ? Biggest I could find and handle. Elmer used a side by side in .500 Boswell.

[PhilLozano]

In stopping a charge, cartridge/bullet counts more than which kind of rifle you use.

As long as you have a RELIABLE rifle, one shot is all you are going to get, because in a charge situation, the critter is coming to kill you. Much different than a hunting situation.

As long as your weapon is reliable and your cartridge/bullet is adequate, you will take the one shot when you are positive you cannot miss the brain. That might be at 15ft., but you must wait.

Best,
Phil

[M.T. Pockets]

I recall the video of the lion charge that was all over the internet about a year or two ago. This lion had been hit by a hunter and was seen crouched about 30 yards away in the bush. Several people emtied their guns and one person was injured when the lion knocked him down. I think there were about 10 shots in all.

If I was in that position I know which of my guns I would liked to have had.

Do I dare speak this..... even online ?

My 12 guage autoloader with a slug barrell using the 3" copper slugs that Barnes loads. Today's autoloaders are probably more reliable than your typical hunter using a bolt or pump under pressure like that when more than one shot is needed.

I know this is no elephant, buffalo or rhino gun under any circumstance. But for wounded cats upclose I think it would would have a place.

I'm far from a PH, or dangerous game hunter, but that is my take on the lion charge in that video.

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I saw that lion charge too and my brothers and I were talking about it last Sunday dinner. We disagree about some of the facts (i.e., whether or not the guide had a gun, whether or not it was the guide that got mauled), but we all agreed that these guys were terrible under the pressure of the attack.

Personally, I think an autoloader shotgun loaded with alternating 3 1/2" shells of barnes X bullet sabots and #00 buckshot would be my gun and loads of choice if I had to go after anything dangerous at short range with the exception of maybe an elephant, cape buffalo, or hippo. I might even take the shotgun on a cape buffalo because it is going to be so close and charging that the shots on its head will be close up and the slugs and buckshot should have enough power to go through that skull and cause a mess of damage.

[royinidaho]

Don't know why I'm jumping in here but I have been thinking of a "stopper". That's why I traded (on huntchat) for a Ruger #1 375 H&H.

I'll be hunting Elk in griz country for the rest of my life and I'd like it to be as long as possible, and just got to thinking that the 270 or 338 Win Mag may not be sufficient.

Was reading American Hunter where they took more than sever shots from a 375 w/270gr bullets to get a big brown finalized. Then I think it was 3 shots from a 416 on another one to ensure it was finalized.

Have a close friend that when he and the PH got done killing a cape buffalo it was on the order of 15 feet from them. Turns out the PH missed and my friend did the killing. He was using a 416 rem or rigby which ever is larger. The frontal shot in the chest is the one that ended it.

I suppose the 375, 300gr solid @ almost 2700 would be sufficient.

I'm trying to decide whether a 300gr soft nose bullet @ about 2600 fps or a 270 gr @ 2600 is sufficient for my insurance policy.

[pomoxis]

There is a signature line that I read on a different bulletin board that said "It is not the CALIBER of the rifle that matters, it is the CALIBER of the MAN behind it."

With a bullet designed for deep penetration and to break bone a .270 that expands out to twice the size you have a .54 wound channel. You need to have one of three things to happen. 1) hit the nervous system (brain or spine) to incapacitate the animal. 2) break bones that allow the animal to keep moving. If you are able to hit a foreword shoulder and the momentum of the animal causes it to tumble you will have a few more seconds while the animal tries to get up. 3) Cause a hydrostatic shock. This is where the force of the bullet sends a ripple through the body fluids and disrupts the nervous system. When you hear of an animal that get a solid hit and just stands there it could be that the bullet sent a shutter to the nervous system and muscles just lock up. When the shock wears off they just walk away. Some hunters think they missed.

Ideally you want all 3 to happen.

If you are going to be in grizzly country a cheap insurance policy would be loading a top quality bullet in your rifle. A Swift A frame, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or the Failsafe are designed for this deep penetration. My personal preference is the Banes X because it acts like a solid after it expands.

[gumboot458]

In response to your question about double verses bolt , a lot of very good info has been posted. I live and work in a sub artic rain forest that has the highest contrations of Alaskan Brown Bear , of any where "in my knowledge" out side the McNiel River area. There are true , impenatrable jungle conditions here, which are usually avoided,but occasionally have to be traversed on foot when sport/subsistance hunting for Sitka black tail deer or Moose or Mountain goats.. Bear hunting also. I have had to stand down bluff charges from brown bear a number of times and have needed to run off many bears . I have been very Blessed by God to never have gotten a bear on top of me nor been bit or hit by one . as I often work and hunt alone, this issue of which is best is more than acidemic for me. So far I have used the 458 win mag, hand loaded with 400 gr bonded core and X bullets and the 416 Taylor w/ 325 gr X bullets and both have stopped the bears imediately. One bear required 3,5oo gr factory sp bullets to drop.however I,m not too sure 1 of those shots was very well placed. All these bears were lion size or larger and I was by myself. I am convinced that under worst case senerios a 500 of 577 double would do what a large medium or large bore rifle will not. ther2 draw backs are cost and weight, However an 18,000$ Searcy 577 nitro double rifle is a lot cheaper than a few reconstructive surgeries. please reply essespecially if any one has used the 505 or the 500 A-Square on in bound game . gumboot ,out.

[Skyline]

Well for packing around grizzly country I use a .375 and have been carrying it for years. I feel confident with it on bears and I think the .416 is a bit more of a good thing. The .458 is better.

But for African game...the big stuff........I believe that a stopping rifle isn't a .416 either. The .416 would be the minimum I would want to be carrying in a fullout charge situation with any of the big stuff. I think the true stopping rifles start with the various .458 cartridges and go up from there, all things being equal, ie. using a good bullet designed for maximum penetration.
The other factor to take into account with 'stopping' cartridges, beyond the bullet construction, is the frontal area of the bullet. Bigger is better.

Anyone who has seen a lot of big animals hit with various cartridges can attest to the difference in the visible affect the big bullets with lots of frontal area have on impact.

If I could afford it I would go with a double in .470 Nitro. There are of course bigger available, but I think it is a good bet with everything taken into account, such as ammo availability and rifle cost.

If I was sticking to a bolt gun then I would go for a .458 Lott.

[gd357]

Just out of curiosity, and reliability aside, How about a semiauto carbine in a big bore round like the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulff? As long as you're shooting solids wouldn't that suffice?

gd

[Skyline]

gd357...............a semi-auto for dangerous game?

It's simply not cricket..............there are certain standards that have to be adhered to.

Aside from any of the perceived issues with reliability............most safari destinations do not allow the importation of semi-automatic weapons.