DG Stopping Rifle - Double vs Bolt - Page 2

OneShotBandit · #16 03-16-2006, 06:49 PM

I'm just an African hunting afcienado(sp). I crave anything about hunting in the Dark Continent, hell I bought a InterArms Mark X in .375 just for fun. I would have to agree w/the statement that it isn't the caliber, But the caliber of the man/hunter. If cost be damned IMHO and that's all it is- I would go for a nice Rigby, H&H or a W-Rs dbl. in 500 Nitro (stopper) and a 416 Rigby/Rem/Wthy in a bolt gun! Boy howdy! By the way that .375 didn't kick any worst then my bolt action Mossberg Slugster! In all realty. a .458 Lott would be the ticket in a bolt action as was stated that you could use the vernable .458 in a pinch. I read in my Cartridges of the World 8th Edition that the .458 is just "adequate" for use as a stopping round as loaded in "factory" state (reason for Jack Lotts wildcat). Just my 2 cents worth!

Virg

MacD37 · #17 07-22-2006, 01:05 PM

Gentlemen, this seems to be an old string that has been brought forward for some reason! Possibly because the question has not been answered! For what ever reason, as I read the whole string, I found a lot of missinformation, some ideas that have been tried many times over the years, and that simply do not work, and most seemed to have missed the "QUESTION" all together!

First off, there is a large difference between a STOPPING RIFLE, and DANGEROUS GAME HUNTING RIFLE! I have some personal experience in both types of rifles, because that is my thing, hunting Dangerous game, where ever it roams.

The place where a STOPPER, and a DGR (dangerous game rifle) are the same, is both must have rock solid RELIABILITY! Beyond that, They are two distinctly different rifles. Both can be used for the other's purpose, but in the case of the HUNTING DGR, used as a stopper can be risky, while the stopper can be used to hunt DG without fault, a DGR is not always the best choice for stopping!

A stopping rifle must be set up a particular way, be it bolt or double! No other type of rifle is suited to the stopping use.

A Bolt action stopper, first, must be CRF, and secondly, must be chambered for a REAL stopping cartridge! After those two things are decided, next must be the fitting of the rifle to the shooter, so instinctive shooting is easy, without the use of the sights. If a scope is mounted on this rifle, it must be in Quick Detach rings, and bases, of high quality, that absolutely returns to zero every time the scope is removed, and replaced. Finally, it must be equipt with quality irons sights, as well. Then the action must be made absolutely reliable in it's feeding, every time, from the first shot, to the last, and from a single round placed dirrectly in the chamber, or from a full, or partially loaded magazine. The cartridge must be from a large medium, like the 375 H&H, which is bottom as a stopper, to the largest round the owner can shoot properly. IMO, the cartridges above .500 cal are not well suited to stoppers! The recovery time from the recoil of one shot to the next is too slow with anything larger, when time matter most!

A double rifle should be a side by side, and fitted to the shooter! with Iron sights that are visable in most types of lighting conditions, and should be weighted, and ballanced for fast handleing, and fitted to the shooter so a close shot can be made with thought of sights at all! Nothing used on dangerous game, in close encounters is faster, or more reliable than a well made S/S double rifle! The rifle must be light enough so it can be carried all day, in heat, and still have the shooter be able to shoot it well when tired, and sweaty. With this neccessity being equally applied to both the Bolt, and Double stopper!

Between the two types (BOLT & DOUBLE) the double rifle is far more reliable than any bolt rifle, the double being two, completely indipendant, rifles on the same stock. If you have a missfire on one barrel, it has no effect on the other barrel at all, unless you have commited the unforgivable sin, of haveing a single trigger on a double rifle. If a spring breaks, or a fireing pin breaks, on one side, you are still left with a single shot rifle. If any of these things happen to a bolt rifle, you are left with a 10 pound club!

As I said stopping rifles can be used for general hunting, and the double rifle is not hendered by a little longer range as most are prone to think. The sights on double rifles with flip-ups that go up to 3 or 400 yards, were not put there for decoration. If a double rifle is loaded with ammo that is properly worked up to shoot to regulation, then the rifle will shoot to all the sights maounted on it by the maker. That is the problem with most people who think double rifles are simply 15 yd rifles, they simply do not know anything about double rifles other than what they've read written by gun rag writers who know even less about them.

I have owned, and still own several double rifles, and bolt stoppers, as well as DGR hunting rifle of both types. I have take dangerous game at close quarters, with both types, and both actions. My choice every time, for a"GO INTO THE WEEDS" rifle will be a S/S double rifle. The reason you see so many Client hunters with bolt action rifles, is, because they are found in every K-Mart in the world, and though it isn't a good idea, you can buy a CHEAP bolt rifle chambered for a big chambering. Where, the price on an even intry level S/S double rifle will cost as much as your brand new Bass Boat, with all the bells & whistles!

I see, in this string, those reccomending a shotgun for stopping a lion, and one guy even states he might take on Cape buffalo with his SavRemChester slug, or buck shotgun! I can't think of a better recipe for a mauling! Lion have been known to stop close range 500 gr 458 Win Mag bullets in the their shoulder muscles in a adrinelin pumped-up charge! I would much rather have a medium bor rifle any day, that any shotgun. Even Leopard PHs rarely use a shotgun for follow-up on wounded leopard, and most of those mauled, or killed in the follow-up were useing shotguns.
That is a 120 lb thin skinned cat, and it would be suicide to follow a Buffalo into the thorn with a scattergun!

After reading this string, I'm sure there will be those who disagree with my take on this subject! That is fine, and this post is simply to place the string in an informed base for discussion. I'll be willing to cuss & discuss anything I've posted, and to offer further information as it comes to be asked, or cussed!

Skyline · #18 07-22-2006, 01:12 PM

Well I will not be one of the guys that disagrees with what you have said.

The problem is most guys do not realize the difference between a rifle and cartridge that are adequate for hunting a specific animal and a 'stopping' rifle and cartridge.

I think you got it about right.

pistolchamp · #19 08-10-2006, 12:05 AM

Although I have only hunted in Africa under very controlled circumstances when providing meat for the "boys" at the ranch.

This September through the end of the year I will get a lot more of this type of experience and some "wild" experience too.

My partner owns a large ranch in central Tanzania where we have an office, so I get the odd chance to go afield.

I also have the luxury of being a dealer for H&H and owning several very nice H&H double rifles in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 470 N.E. So far the only one fired in anger is the 375 and the old (1931) girl performed perfectly. I have been shooting and practicing all summer with all three and hope to see how each works in the fall. It was a challenge to get the 375 to regulate, but, I finally found two very good handloads that work quite well. My partner owns a 458 Win Mag Holland double and he postively will NOT sell it. He promised to leave it to me in his will... now I just have to out live him!

Being a serious tradionalist, I shall shoot only double rifles in Africa and SXS shotguns as well. I carried the 375 H&H on a bear hunt in Canada and they all laughed at me. I didn't get a shot, but, they might have changed their minds if I had.

grayghost · #20 08-12-2006, 12:00 AM

Sounds like words of wisdom to me Mac. I would believe your advice over much of the hoopla I've read in magazines. There's nothing better than advice from those that walk the walk. I hope to take a Buff one day before long. Any recommendations for a rifle in the 375 to 458 offerings? I'd only be using it for Buff and most likely once in my life. Good hunting, grayghost

pomoxis · #21 08-12-2006, 10:55 AM

When I went to Zibabwe for cape buffalo I bought a .375 H&H because of all the traditional elements and the "one rifle" safari concept. If I had to start from square one and do it all over again if I was going to hunt dangerous game I would choose a .416 Remmington.

After haveing elephants at close range the .375 H&H seem a bit of a light weight. The .416 solid will handle all the smaller antelope and can reach out to a fair distance. If you have to to reach out farther you always have the option of stalking closer.

grayghost · #22 08-12-2006, 12:26 PM

I had heard about that video but never had the opportunity to view it until now. Thanks SuicidJky for posting the link. To my novice eyes, I saw several mistakes the hunter made. I think I would have taken the first shot opportunity when the Lion turned his head to the left. He exposed his right shoulder to what I viewed as a good shot. Would not breaking the Lion's right shoulder and penetrating the vitals been the correct shot? For sure, after the hunter took the shot, I would have given the Lion another shot in the left shoulder when he first raised up after being hit. That man is extremely lucky to be alive! If that Lion had hooked him solid, I suspect he would have biten him (the hunter) in the neck/face area, possibly killing him. Just goes to show; never underestimate the power of dangerous game. Cool video but it gives me the "heebee jeebee's." grayghost

bsterns · #23 08-12-2006, 01:48 PM

The fellow in the exciting video is Dr. Brian Gulley, an oral surgeon friend of mine from Corpus Christi. He has hunted numerous times in Africa after dangerous game and is a very brave soul. The game warden of the area asked the PH's help in harvesting a rogue lion that had dug out of a game preserve and was marauding the villager's livestock. Brian was eager to go shoot the lion. I told him I thought it was stupid to stalk the lion when he was obviously such a very dangerous animal. He could have shot him from the truck. He said that wouldn't be sporting so they shot him on foot as you saw. Brian was shooting a 338 win mag. He now carries only the 416 Rigby.

After Brian shot him, the lion charged and was shot at least twice through the thorax by the PHs from a side angle. It did not seem to faze the lion. Still pictures show the bullets exiting through the other side of the lion from the double barrel big guns of the PHs. There were two PH'swith Brian. As the lion ran and got fairly close to Brian, Brian shot him through his open mouth and only broke the jaw. Brian lunged to the left as the lion leaped and was able to escape with only a set of claw scratches to his left shoulder. Brian said the tail hooked him and spun him with such a strength that he almost could not break loose. He said the tail was incredibly strong. The momentum of the leap did not allow the lion to turn so Brian was able to move laterally and escaped with his life. The lion had been shot at least 3 fatal times before he lept and several times after he hit the ground and then he still ran off. The last shot did put him down. When the lion got up before the charge the PH told Brian he was coming for him and Brian asked him how he knew and he said that the lion had locked his gaze upon Brian and that meant that Brian was his target. I have only seen still pictures until now. Brian promised me a video but now I have seen it. It all happened much faster than I had imagined. The lions claws were worn almost off from digging and that also contributed to a lesser injury to the shoulder. Brian is extremely brave to stand and shoot with such coolness, also very lucky.

OneShotBandit · #24 08-12-2006, 03:45 PM

bsterns,
On another forum there were several posts that said that this was a "canned hunt" shot in Texas. Also that there is a fence in the background, etc., etc. It looked pretty real to me! Years ago I seen a video of a lion charge and the hunter was using a bolt action rifle, it amazed me how cool some of you DG hunters can be. I watched Doug McNeal and a PH shooting a charging elephant on OLN and it made me set on the edge of my chair! I've never been "tested (combat,etc.)" and a charging Big Five would test my nerve! Sounds machismo, but just my opinion. You all have my salute!

Virgil

bsterns · #25 08-12-2006, 04:09 PM

Virgil, that was definitely not a canned hunt. I got all my info from Brian. He was not hunting for lions at the time of the adventure. He was either after cape buffalo or elephant at the time. He goes to Africa about 3 times a year. Hunts only dangerous game. He has shot a number of buffalo and elephant. I personally am not experienced on the big 5 of Africa. I would like to go after them but I would not want to walk up on a big rogue lion eating. They were a little too bold for my thinking. I think Brian wanted to make a video and he got one. Maybe more than he bargained for. When I saw the pictures right after he got back I was truly shocked and amazed at them. It was one of the scariest stories I have heard. They don't have any canned hunts for African lion in Texas to my knowledge but they might and I am sure they will. I did see a Cheeta in Namibia that was in a high fenced area. He tried to get at one of the bushmen opening the gate to the adjoining area. He was pretty mean but I would not feel it was fair chase to shoot one in that setting.

grayghost · #26 08-12-2006, 04:35 PM

Hats off to him Bob, and it in no way looked like Texas (although some areas do look similar to SW TX) but the PH not only spoke with a South African accent, he was also speaking Afrikaan's to the Trackers. You can clearly hear this on the video. Worn claws and a broken jaw most likely saved the Doc from serious injury or even death, and yes, it all happened at the speed of light. My wife says she doesn't ever want me hunting Lions....OK....we'll see

Next time you see the Dr., please send my best wishes and congrats on surviving and taking a magnificent Lion. One of the best one could hope to take anymore. Man, is he lucky to be with us! Good hunting, grayghost

OneShotBandit · #27 08-13-2006, 06:55 AM

I hope you all didn't think I was dissing the video. It is amazing how "hunters" judging other hunters on the Game they hunt. I have shooting/hunting friends in Chicago who think I'm horrible when I mention wanting to shoot a bull jumbo! Kinda reminds one of gunowners judging what is a "good" gun from a "bad" gun! Good hunting!

Virgil

bsterns · #28 08-14-2006, 11:31 PM

Virgil, I think the lion must have dug into a fenced livestock area. That is what made the situation was so serious and potentially deady. The lion was trapped and the hunters rushed toward him when he was wounded and he had nowhere to run because of that fence. In the video you can see the bloody area on the lions chest caused by one or two of the bullets as he leaped through the air in slow motion. Those animals are tough. That is one tough way to get an adrenaline rush.

Andy L · #29 08-15-2006, 09:55 AM

I see several good opportunities for someone to get shot in that video. Including the "hunter" who drops the rifle (338 Win Mag?), most likely loaded with safety off, lands with the barrel facing him as he falls.

Still makes me curious as to the high fence in the background. Seems that lion is trying to get away until cornered.

Glad someone knows this guy cause its got spam hunt written all over it.....

JMHO

Andy

Rapier · #30 08-15-2006, 10:59 AM

I just finished my DG rifle, so it is obviously my choice.

The rifle is a custom, built on a Montana Rifle Co 1999 controlled feed action with a 25 inch non ported heavy barrel. The chambering is 458 Lott. The stock is Bastogne walnut with double stainless steel cross bolts and a 7 inch 3/8 threaded steel rod, glassed solid into the wrist. The action and triggerguard are 100% glass bedded. The bullets I like so far are the 400 grain Hornady flat nose. They do about 2550 fps and shoot into 1 inch at 100. The rifle is heavy by design. I regestered the express sights with 500 grain solids in a factory duplication load at 2250 fps.

The scope is a 1.5x6 Hakko with 4 inch eye relief, euro post with lit red point.

Just before I left for Africa in May, I went over to a friends house to look over his trophy room. In the middle of the floor he had a big male lion, full mount, standing over a zebra full mount. It is amazing how big a lion is, when you get up real close. The size of the shoulders and front legs are very impressive.
Ed