We are less than 5% of the muzzleloader hunters?

[Adam Helmer]

An update:

On page 12 of the December/January 2006 issue of "Outdoor Life," my letter to the Editor appears and there is a reply from Mr. Lermayer regarding his "more than 95% of muzzleloader hunters pack in-lines", as stated in his October 2005 article.

Mr. Lermayer says, "That figure is based on sales over the last 10 years. Most of the major manufacturers have discontinued sidelocks completely or are making only a token few."

Well, let us review: Guns will last a lifetime and many traditional sidelocks are on establishment across the nation. In the PA Traditional ML season after Christmas, ONLY flintlocks are legal and PA sells 130,000+ ML licenses a year. To look ONLY at sales over the last 10 years gives a skewed view of the ratio of MLs afield. Also, I see many new Thompson Center, Lyman and other major manufacturers' traditional ML arms on the racks of my local gun shop. I suspect the arms on the racks are the "token few" Mr. Lermayer has in mind. Whatever.

Adam

[skeet]

Hi Adam...and everyone else.

The State of Pa is somewhat of a throwback. Of course there are more sidelock guns there. They require flinters in the traditional season...so what are the retailers gonna sell.... sidelock flinters.. But tell ya what. Go to most any other state and you will hardly see any flinters for sale and very few sidelock guns. As I said..I enjoy the sidelocks..but am going to shoot a Savage with smokeless myself. Hate to clean the darn things for certain. And I am after all just enjoying more time hunting. I am now up to 28 Savage guns since July and if I could get them in a hurry..probably 2 more. I don't miss cleaning them but I really did like hunting with the Hawken. It was easy to carry and no scopes to worry about..but I'll use the Savage. Not even 1 customer asked for a sidelock gun...and I make it known I have them available. They all want inlines such as Knights Remingtons etc. Oh and by the way...I do not sell any of the cheap Wally world specials. Most are junk...and some are dangerous..in my opinion of course!

[wrenchman]

I hunted with my side lock today t.c new englander it was a cold
morn.
I have yet to sight in my in line.
I was wondering also of the guys useing side locks how many are youseing patch balls and black powder it is what i run threw mine.

[popplecop]

I'm so old, I thought in line was talking about gas engines. I have shot black powder muzzle loading rifles and cartridge rifles for about 50 years. Have not tried those new rifles yet, probably will not, was tempted by a TC Encore a little. I have to say I do not have any problems with the rifles I have now including flinters. Guess I'm too old to change. Around here we have probably 30 to 40% shooting traditional. Have even seen some give up the inlines just as some archers are returning to straight and recurve bows.

[skeet]

As Popplecop said..he is old and kinda stuck in his ways. BTW I also know what a straight 8 is....an inline. The people that have bought the sidelock guns from me in the last few years are also the older guys. Being out there means more than killing it. ...But the ol guys like us aren't the ones buying the new guns or shooting them either. Heck guys...I thought when Winchester stopped making the real Model 70 in 1963 they quit making guns. We may have a resurgence of sidelocks...like we did with blackpowder shooting itself...but not for a while. I think there is also another smokeless powder inline muzzleloader coming out in the next year. oh well...

[Lilred]

I aint never had an inline..and dont see nary a reason to change now. Hubby bought one last year...swears he'll never hunt with it again..lol

People round here aint really into fancy guns..and alot just hunt w/ sidelocks and such...either that er they're too poor. Which is fine by me..aint nuthin wrong with bein simple last I heared.

[rattus58]

Adam ...

There is no question about the popularity of the inline over the traditional offerings, and I'd be completely surprised if traditional offerings today even met the 5% volume in new sales overall from year to year.

But, from an ownership standpoint, I think I would agree that many of us that own inlines also own flintlocks, caplocks, underhammers and the like. Many of us also own replica civil war muskets, just because, and I'm certain that that number probably does exceed that 5% number by some larger margin.

Aloha..

[quigleysharps4570]

In July I actually held one...that image still haunts me. Wasn't by choice...a friend of mine was showing me his cartridge rifles. I was holding one when he handed me another. Turns out to be an in-line. Of course I let him know that was a first. Guess I gotta be more careful in the future.

[Adam Helmer]

quigleysharps45/70,


ALL is forgiven. As a Lay Minister conducting services twice a month, I assure you that "All is forgiven" now and for always. If you need a redo, feel free to come to Trinity Episcopal Church in Antrim, PA on January 15, 2006 and I will give you "remission of sins" per the Book of Common Prayer.

Adam

[quigleysharps4570]

Thank you Adam.

[larryours]

Here in West Virginia, everyone used to use flintlock and percussion sidelocks, until our Legislators in their wisedom, changed the law to allow in-linemuzzleloaders, with scopes. I reckon our "primitive " season got modern.
West Virginia doesn't have a "primitive" just a muzzleloader season. The hunting challenge has been taken away, and subsituted with the killing challenge. In other words its like having a Model-T Ford and a Stock car racing, I reckon its still qualifies as a "Car Race"?????

I have never/nor will I ever own an In-line Muzzlerloader.

I'd rather tape a wooden dowel underneath my .308 single shot rifle and hunt during the regular deer season, and if I killed a deer take a picture and say "Yes, I killed it with a modern muzzleloader, the only difference is, I didn't shove the .308 shell down the muzzle.

I congradulate Pa. for their primitive season.

I saw a hunting video where a hunter was bragging on his "Primitive" deer kill in Canada with a muzzlerloader, saying I killed this deer with a primitive muzzleloader ,and when the tape panned around to show the weapon, you guessed it. A synthetic black stock, stainless steel in-line muzzler loader, with a large scope. Something just does't seem right !!!!!

[Adam Helmer]

larryours,

Yes, I hear you. Here in PA they changed the law two years ago and allowed "Any Muzzleloader" for deer in the October deer season and the Game Commission NEVER asked the 130,000 current traditional muzzleloader hunters if a change to include inlines was needed! I would have told PGC that inlines belong in the two-week RIFLE deer season.

Our Primitive (Flintlock) deer season begins the day after Christmas. All hunters will carry flinters. The squewed numbers of "recent ML gun sales" to prove we are less than 5% discounts the many thousands of traditional MLs owned and carried every year afield. I own many traditional arms, but no inlines.

Adam

[skeet]

Was talking with a few of the boys up in Pa today. Most are just happy to be able to get another season for deer under their belts. I salute the guys of the present who use the flinters as well as the ones of the past who settled this great country and fed their families with the "flintlock guns". Just in case y'all think I was disparaging the sidelock guns...I wasn't. I am glad that the tradition is carried forward. Luck to y'all in the primitive season up in Pa and wherever the tradition is carried forward by the real "Longhunters".

[Skyline]

Personally I don't know what all the hype is about. I don't care whether a guy is packing a flint lock, percussion, or a new in-line. It isn't going to affect my personal hunt during muzzleloader season. I know what I can do with the gear I am carying and any deer beyond that is going to be safe.

The new in-lines do not stretch things as far as the media has everyone believing and I have seen few that can print a decent enough group past 150 yards to be much of a threat to a deer.
Yes there are a few who can stretch the distance......but about as many muzzleloader hunters are capable of that kind of shooting as conventional rifle hunters are capable of shooting consistantly past 200 yards in the field......not too damn many!

As long as they are hunting with something that requires they stuff powder and a bullet down the barrel, cock a hammer and slip on a cap..... that fits fine with me in a muzzleloader season.

What a person uses is an individual preference. If I decide to hunt with an iron sighted .30-30 lever action during rifle season, that is my choice, but I will not snivel at my neighbour who is shooting a .30-.378 Weatherby with a 4-12 varible on it and can wack a deer quite handily at 400 or 500 yards across a field. The .30-30 hunter may have to rely more on stealth than the .30-.378 user....but routinely being able to hit game at long distance has its own set of skills attached to it.

As for the scope thing. Well I can still do fine with iron sights, but my Dad sure as heck couldn't and if he couldn't use a scope on a muzzleloader, that would severely limit his opportunities.....penalized due to age.

This is the kind of thing I wish guys would lighten up on. During archery season guys shooting traditional stick bows frown upon someone using a new fangled high tech compound and god forbid a crossbow! Even though crossbows have as limited a range as regular archery equipment.

I have guided traditional archers for caribou......they had trouble connecting at 15 yards most of the time. Is it somehow unfair if the next guy had a compound and was capable of connecting at 50 yards......still throwing a stick isn't it?

Last fall I had a chap miss a big bull moose 4 times at 120 yards with his .300 WSM. That new fad cartridge didn't do him any good. I know guys with flint locks that could have hammered that bull each and every time.

Hey, if you are a rabid flint lock user....great. But does it really matter if a newbie into muzzleloaders opts for the in-line? Does it severly affect your chances of bringing home venison? No. In a regular muzzleloader season you decide how you want to hunt and you put your own personal limitations on what you do and how you do it.

Our sport has enough problems without hunters getting so steamed up at other hunters choices.

Hey, just my opinion............no doubt many will disagree.

[quigleysharps4570]

Scoped in-lines...well...any in-line... have no place in a traditional muzzleloader season...might as well use a cartridge gun if you're gonna carry one that looks like it. IMO