OLN- "Dangerous Game"

[Skyline]

fabsroman

Trophy hunting of elephants is monitored very closely. Trade in wildlife is monitored by the CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species....) and they list the species in three appendices.......Appendix I, II and III. Look at I as being the most serious and III the least.

Just because an animal is listed doesn't actually mean that hunting should not be allowed. Some animals are listed because a particular species in a particular country is in trouble so all similar types are listed as well.

As an example......the African elephant. African elephants are listed in Appendix I....EXCEPT elephants in Zimbabwe, South Africa, Namibia and Botswana, they are in Appendix II. Now to keep this in perspective you should know that ALL bears are listed in Appendix II and all wolves are in Appendix II except for a few Asian countries where they are listed in Appendix I.

Now I have wolves and black bears on my ranch all the time and I think most hunters would agree that the black bear is anything but endangered in North America.........but they are listed to help with the monitoring of trade in bear parts from places like Asia and South America (sloth bear, spectacled bear etc.).

So, bottom line is that just because an animal is listed with CITES doesn't mean they are endangered everywhere.........

Now you are from the US............so the next thing that enters the elephant mess is the USFWS. They set importation quotas for legally taken sport trophies, including elephant. Although CITES factors into it.....the USFWS allows trophies to be imported from countries where the elephant is listed on Appendix II, but they also allow trophies from some countries where the elephants are listed on Appendix I as well. Examples would be Tanzania, Cameroon, Mozambique and Ethiopia. NOTE: the import permits are only for legally taken sport hunting trophies......not carved trinkets and bobbles.

Your USFWS studied the situation in each country.......animal populations, management programs, whether the taking of sport trophies would be beneficial to the overall picture and then either set an allowable quota for importation or turn the country down.

In a cash starved environment, such as is the situation in many African countries, the animals need to pay their own way and trophy hunting is a major source of funding for the game departments. Safari hunting also supplies cash and meat to rural people.

Not everything is as simple as watching a fund raising program from the World Wildlife Fund or Walt Disney. I say again......endangered is only relevant on a site specific basis.

Wolves may be endangered in Idaho, but they are hammering the heck out of the moose and caribou up north. Elephants may be endangered in the Sudan, but they certainly are not in Zimbabwe.

As I type this Zambia is negotiating with the US to allow importation of legally taken elephant. They need the cash that the harvesting of a few trophy bulls will generate to help fund their elephant management strategy. Elephant hunting has been closed in Zambia for a number of years.

I'm with OneShotBandit.........when I win the lottery the first thing I will do is book an elephant hunt. As pomoxis said, once you have been there and experienced what it is like in the African bush you would soon change your mind. I too have seen how difficult it can be to see an elephant in the thornbush, even at 30 yards. You need to look at the BIG picture........

[fabsroman]

Trust me, I am trying to look at the BIG picture or I wouldn't even be posting about this. Two things that I don't have are money and a closed mind, that is a closed mind and money. I post about things sometimes because I want to know more about them.

With that said, sometimes animals can be exploited for money, as I posted earlier. This is a catch 22. Kind of like why Africans eat seed that is sent to them instead of planting it. If they don't eat it, there will be nobody left to plant anything. I am just trying to understand how killing elephants instead of relocating them is beneficial for elephants in general. Now, I am not talking about relocating them to areas that did not have native elephants, but to areas that used to have native elephants or areas that have an endangered population of elephants.

As far as hunting them goes, I don't think it would be easy in the least bit. I don't think hunting any wild animal would be easy, especially when they are not used to human contact. With that said, some of the whitetails around here will stand around and look at me while I am walking through the woods with a gun in my hand.

Eventually, I might make it to Africa and I am actually looking forward to that hunt. I know Buffalo will be on the list of animals that I want to take, along with Kudu, but that is because I see herds of them running around in the videos, and I mean herds. I have seen some buffalo herds in the 100's. Those don't look endangered to me. What I haven't seen is tons of elephants. Now, by the time I can afford to get over there, I plan on doing some research into the whole elephant issue and making an informed decision then.

Addressing the bear issue, I understand what you are getting at completely. Maryland had a very small bear population until recently and they had the first bear hunt last year because they are starting to get out of control. Some PETA people tried to put a stop to the bear hunt, but the Courts would not allow it. In the end, if it is legal, I guess I just have to trust the game management people's opinion and hope that they are not destroying an animal's future to bring in money. Just not a good long term solution.

[Skyline]

fabsroman,

Do yourself a favor and go to Africa. I have hunted cape buffalo a few times and I can tell you that if I had the cash I would go every year. It is fun.......a lot of fun. It is visceral!

You will also enjoy hunting for Kudu.

As for relocating elephants.........................it is a great idea, but you have no idea how costly it is. It is a tough go on a local basis never mind relocating between countries. Not practical my friend. I am not saying that it isn't a good idea in a perfect world, but no game department could afford to do it on a big scale.

They do it regularly in South Africa......that is move a few elephant from Kruger or another park to a new game park location that needs to start a resident herd. But on a large scale, which is what we are talking about.......100's or 1000's of elephants.......no way.

You need semi sized transport trucks with special containers to house the animals during transport. Big winches, vets, helicopters, darting crew and many grunts.

Locally near home.......the national park was darting and collaring some elk for a study......costs ended up being $5000 per animal.

Even in Africa, where local labor is not pricey, by the time you factor in equipment, etc it costs many thousands per elephant to relocate on a small scale. Between countries where transport could be thousands of miles.......it ain't gonna happen. Millions of dollars would be involved and they do not have it in the first place. Better to let hunters drop a few trophy bulls at about $30,000 or so and sell a few non-trophy hunts for $12,000 to get the funds to manage the existing herd.

Africa is no different than here....developing yes, but the same problems. You can't have elephants in a lot of areas as they do what they want....travel....eat farmers crops etc. In some cases it is about as fanciful as it is to think we could still have the bison/buffalo.

Not going to happen! Thousands/millions of bison moving around doing what bison do would not allow for farms to exist would it. Like it or not, for the west to settle and the bread basket exist, the bison had to go.

I would be all for the US and Canada buying up thousands of farmers and turning the great plains back into a bison habitat.....but lets face it, that isn't going to happen.

In some parts of Africa the same problem exists with their wildlife and the growing human population. Elephant are big creatures and they need space......each country only has so much land that can be considered elephant territory. It is fair to say that some of those countries have no room for natural, free roaming elephant herds, any more than Kansas has room for a few hundred thousand bison to roam around.

In most areas bison are in fenced....finite....enclosures and they have to be culled to keep the herd in check with their surroundings. There are few true free range bison left in North America. Think about it....in the US, a small herd here or there in Arizona, around Yellowstone (they still hit fences when they leave the park), the herd in the Dakotas (a park and they still have to be culled), and Alaska (transplanted herds).

In Canada we have free ranging herds.....wood bison in the Northwest Territories, Wood Buffalo National Park in the NWT and Alberta, free ranging bison in northeastern British Columbia...free ranging but introduced. All areas with very few people.

That same requirement excists in Africa for free ranging elephant herds.........as the population grows and development takes place, suitable elephant areas decrease. Sad but true.

If you look at the big picture you will find that the illegal ivory trade and the ivory poaching all stemmed from a huge demand in the Asian market.....same as rhino horn, bear gall bladders, tiger parts, deer antler, snakes.........I could go on. Elephant were never endangered because a Yank or a Canuck wanted to have a set of 70 pount ivory teeth standing in their trophy room.

The world as a whole has actually done a good job of stemming the ivory trade. Pianos do not have ivory keys anymore and the demand for ivory knickknacks has subsided.....at least outside of the Orient.

As for the bears in Maryland........you can only have so many bears in a given area, especially when you have millions of people. If you have too many bears, shooting a few is the answer. Keep the population within a certain level and they will always have enough room to roam and enough to eat. When the population grows beyond the available habitat problems occur.

I hope you aren't thinking they should relocate them! We already have enough thanks!

[fabsroman]

Well put Skyline. I know the PETA people were talking about transplanting and/or sterilizing whitetails around here to keep the herd size down, but the cost was insane. Hence, hunting is the answer. Same goes for the bear, and now I sort of understand how it goes for elephants. My entire thought process dealt with whether or not elephants were still endangered. For instance, I believe the white rhino is terribly endangered, so allowing hunting of them on any basis would probably be insane. I just don't know how many elephants are around in Africa. If there are thousands, I would probably be okay with the hunting of them. If there are hundreds, I think I would be rather mixed on the hunting of them. And if there were less than 100, I would definitely be against it.

[Skyline]

Well here are a few numbers for you to consider.

African elephant - current population estimates are between 400,000 and 600,000. Zimbabwe alone has about 85,000 elephants.

White rhino - there are two types, the north white rhino and the southern. The northern white rhino is in serious trouble......but the southern white rhino is doing fine. There are close to 11,000 white rhino in South Africa. They allow the harvest of a few old bulls each year, these are surplus animals in reality, ......USFWS has a quota for importation of sport trophies from South Africa. Many are re-introduced to game parks in new/old territory every year as well.

Black rhino - yes these boys are still in trouble, but there are breeding herds in South Africa and the populations are increasing in Kenya and Namibia as well. Namibia's black rhino population is around 1200.

[fabsroman]

Okay, thanks for the research. I haven't had the computer time to do it here at the in-laws in Florida. I barely have enough time to get on-line and check out huntchat.

If elephants are in the 400,000 to 600,000 range, I would agree that hunting them to a certain degree is fine. Sounds like they have the rhino hunting pegged pretty well too. I guess they might actually know what they are doing over there in Africa.

Again, thanks for the numbers. Now, I too can justify the taking of elephants to PETA activists and others.

[OneShotBandit]

I leave here for awhile and look what happens! I'm glad that this post has been kept civilizied. Thanks for your input, Skyline and thanks for you replies, Fab! I hope you all had a great Holiday season and a great start for the new year. I always dreamed of going to the Dark Continent w/my brother for a Cape Buffalo hunt, leaving the PH behind with just Ben & I going at a 42" M'bogo! Hahahaha! Take care, gentlemen!

Virgil

[PigPig]

elephants are not endangered animal. Not everywhere.
In some areas, they are over populated...if you know how much they ate everyday or the damage they can do to the habitat...a herd of elephants need to migrate quite often since they can turn green land into desert quite fast.
Relocating those 10 tons plus animals to hundreds miles away to turn agicultural area into desert or made money from rich safari hunters overseas, not a tought choice for those poor Africa governments who need money to MANAGE their natural resources just as our MNR...

Anyway, no meat will be waste...
The locals like the meat and their farmland will be safe too.



Oh! btw, go check outdoorlife feb/2006 issue page 15.
Elephants Are Endangerous?