AR-15; AR-10 Recommendations

[fabsroman]

RR,

I appreciate all the help you have provided on this subject. My brother has a Bushmaster AR-15 and we have a couple of mutual friends that have AR-15's, but these guys barely ever shoot and they only bought the guns because they looked cool on display in the local gun shops here. My brother is about the only one that can shoot them decently, and I truly hate the trigger on his gun and our buddies' guns. I know quite a bit about shotguns and bolt action rifles, but will readily admit that I am clueless regarding AR's.

It took me a couple minutes to figure out what RRA meant, but I finally figured it out. I just got back from Rock River Arms' website and had checked that one out too on several occassions but never paid attention to the fact that they sell lowers separately. Do they sell an AR-10 lower, or is the AR-10 and AR-15 lower the exact same thing, with the upper being the only difference between the two rifles? For $400 each, I'd order both lowers today and then deal with getting uppers later because I really like the thought of an upper on these guns that is chambered for a magnum type cartridge. Might even start out with an upper for the AR-15 from Accuracy Arms. I was looking at their Leviathan uppers and that looks like an awesome cartridge. I'll have to look a little closer at ballistics and powder consumption, but it looks awesome.

Other than Accuracy Arms, are there any other uppers that you would recommend?

How about glass for these guns? I love Burris and was thinking about putting Burris Black Diamond or Euro Diamond scopes on both guns. The scopes have a 30mm tube. I was thinking about putting something on them around 4-16 with a 44mm bell? Would that be too little, too much, or just enough magnification. I have a 3-12x 44mm on my .300 Win Mag and .270 bolt rifles and a 8-32x 44mm on my .220 Swift bolt rifle.

With all these options, I am really getting excited about this purchase, but I am also getting a headache.

Can you PM me with some AR boards where I might be able to learn a little more about these guns before plunging into two of them?

Again, thanks for all the help.

[hofts]

just for fun, you will like what you see.!

lesbaer.com

[Mil Dot]

Fabs,
I have a buddy that has a Rock River 223 varmint, 26' Bull barrel, that shoots like a champ. The only thing about the RR is to be sure to get the match trigger. Their standard trigger is cr*p. After he bought it we had gone back to the dealer to inquire about adjustability ... not. The dealer was nice enough to hand us a gun with a match trigger on it ... nice and crisp. To bad the guy wasn't nice enough to mention this to mu friend prior to the purchase. Oh well, I guess he gets to go after marlet with a jewell.

MD

[Ridge Runner]

Steve at www.adco.com has always had the best prices on lowers that I found an RRA nat. match (nat. natch= good trigger)
last time I checked they were 302.00, delivered. that was when they were 350.00+ S&H from RRA.
No AR-10 lowers are not the same, the housing is bigger to accept the 308 length mag, but all the parts are interchangeable except for a few small ones, as I stated in above post.
Not sure about armalite but I'm certain Eagle arms (sister co. to armalite) sells lowers separately.
RR

Will pm with more info

[Lycanthrope]

One thing I've learned after several AR's.........

The manufacturers mark up the prices....a lot. Please don;t pay $900 for a shelf rifle......

99% of your performance and reliability is in the upper. Lowers really don't matter much as long as they are in spec.

You can "build" a semi custom AR15 for $1000 or under and have a guaranteed .5 MOA gun. The simplest solution is to get a RRA or Stag (both made by CMT.....the only difference is the rollmark) from Eagle Firearms . That will run $200 complete. RRA/Stag lowers are tight fitting to the upper and don't have the rattle the Bushy's tend to get.

Next, mate that lower to a quality upper. If you want a varmint or competition gun, the Clark Gator is guaranteed to run .5 MOA with handloads. You also get a carbon fiber float tube, chromed bolt and carrier and match barrel. Another option is the White Oak Armament uppers. These have the 1:7 twist to run the heavier bullets out to 600 yards+.

With those varmint/long range setups you can have money left over for a custom trigger as well for your $1000 and change........a LOT more than buying off the shelf.

Of course, you could pull out the stops and buy aJP

As for the AR10, that can be a bit more pricey, but you could just get another lower and mate it to a 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .50 Beowulf, .458 SOCOM, .204, or any other upper than will fit a standard AR15 platform.

Oly makes the .25 WSSM and .243 WSSM uppers and those have the capability of mid sized game guns as well as pushing lighter bullets at 4000fps........

[Lycanthrope]

P.S. - all the guns I have shoot under 1 MOA with 24.5gr of Varget and the 69gr Sierra Match King.

Gator...

White Oak Service Rifle/CMP gun with Jewell trigger

Olympic OA93PT with removeable stock

Model 1 kit gun built for $550

3 shot .65 MOA group at 100 yards with above "cheapo POS kit" gun.....



And more.......

[fabsroman]

Okay, I think I made up my mind. I am going to get the AR-10(T) Ultra from Armalite which uses the .300 RSAUM cartridge because I think I can get it for around $2,000. Trying to find AR-10 lowers and custom uppers is pretty tough, but I did happen to find some uppers from Accuracy Systems for $1,600 in .270 WSM, 7mm WSM, and .300 WSM. Actually, I just found those uppers a couple of minutes ago, and am now debating whether or not to buy one of those uppers and a $400 lower, or to buy the entire Armalite AR-10(T) Ultra. Buying a complete gun from Accuracty Systems will cost me $2,200 or more.

Along with the AR-10, I am going to get a Rock River AR-15 lower from adcofirearms.com. Then, I am going to get a custom upper in .25 WSSM from Dedicated Technology. I really like what I saw on the limited website for Dedicated Technology. He uses Oly barrels and he provides the WSSM magnums in .25, .243 and .223. I figure I can buy a couple more uppers for the AR-15 as time goes by (i.e., I can afford the uppers and additional scopes).

How hard is it to change uppers on an AR-15, and does it affect the scope's zero on them? The latter is the more important question of the two.

Last but not least, does anybody use the picattiny rail on the gas block for anything. I wouldn't mind mounting a laser sight on the AR-15, but it looks as though mounting it on the gas block would get in the way of the scope.

[Lycanthrope]

You pop two pins and the upper comes off the lower. Takes about 45 seconds.

The uppers stay zeroed when you change them. The lower or how it mates to the upper (some are sloppy) have zero impact on accuracy. All the Accuwedge does is stop the rattle (buy a RRA lower and you won't have rattle anyway)

You have to be careful what you mount on the front sight block because they get hot. Most people choose to mount accessories on a railed handguard. Most blocks are railed for the attachment of back up/flip up iron sights.

In most cases you will mount a scope on a riser to be comfortable and you'll see right over the front sight base and even a full A2 front sight. My guns don't use risers, but I shoot with my cheekbone slammed into to the stock for a consistent index and make sure the scope's eye relief and focus is perfect at that point. You can also get a 4 railed gas block if you desire for a small cost. Actually, I have an unused one.. make me an offer.

[Lycanthrope]

P.S. the RRA two stage triggers are OK, but not as nice as a Chip McCormick (single stage), JP (single stage) or a Jewell (two stage). Even in service rifle, everyone is sending their RRA triggers to John Holliger at White Oak to make them worthy. The RRA has a good rep for service rifle, but remember the overall pull must be 4.5lbs and that's not as light as I prefer for a target gun if I have my way. The other triggers listed above will beat that.

You'll save that extra $100 if you buy a lower from Eagle with a standard trigger and then you'll also have a backup if your match unit fails.......been down that road......

[Lycanthrope]

You'll save $20 buying the lower at www.eaglefirearms.net over ADCO.

A few more pennies if you buy the Stag lower. As I said before the RRA and Stag are IDENTICAL. Both made by CMT at their shop and the only difference is the stamp. More money left over for goodies.......

[fabsroman]

Good Lord, there are so many options here. I think I am going to start with a lower and a standard trigger and move from there. Where can I buy the Jewell trigger and what is it going to cost me? I am surprised that there aren't a ton of websites out there with a ton of accessories for the AR-15. I was just looking at accessories on one of them, and to change the front barrel shroud to a Daniel Defense shroud wherein I could attach accessories, it runs about $400. Just buying accessories for the gun could cost more than the gun itself and that isn't including the scope.

As I mentioned before, I would like to put a laser on these rifles, so does anybody know of anyone out there that makes a barrel shroud that is mostly smooth, but with 360 degree attachment ability toward the front of it. An example would be the AR-10(T) Ultra from Armalite, but I believe that accessory system us on the gas block and I don't want my accessories frying as mentioned above.

I think this is the most complicated gun purchase I have ever contemplated because of all the options.

[fabsroman]

I think I am going crazy. I just looked at DPMS's website and now I have a million more questions. It's guns seem to be reasonably priced.

I can get a .300 RSAUM AR-10 type rifle with a 20" bull barrel for $1,250. The website says that it comes with the standard A-15 trigger group. What does that mean? It also says "Note: The JARD Trigger will not ft in the DPMS line of LR-308 rifles!" What does that mean?

I can also get a .223 AR-15 type rifle from them with a 24" super bull barrel (i.e., 1.15" diameter). Essentially, it is almost the same gun as above in .223 and it costs $1,199. I also have the option to add a JP trigger, harris bipod, cryo barrel, a 1x8 twist instead of 1x9, chrome bolt carrier, and vented free float tube on this gun. These options might be available on the .300 above, but the website didn't say they were.

Now, I think the MSRP prices are well above what I can get these guns for, so I might be able to get both guns for $2,000 or less and come close to finishing everything off with scopes for a total of $3,000. My wife would be ecstatic and I wouldn't have to worry about having a lower assembly sitting around until I got the upper.

What are your opinions on the DPMS Panther line of guns? Should I be concerned about the trigger issues with the AR-10? Essentially, these are the two guns I was aiming for in the beginning, but I got carried away with all the options and available uppers. At a later date, I could buy additional uppers for the AR-15 in .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, and .25 WSSM. DPMS even sells a .204 Ruger upper for the AR-15 and a .260 Rem upper for the AR-10.

This summer, I will have been "new gun purchaseless" for nearly three years and I am dying to get something new. I love the idea of working on these guns at a later date to modify them the way I want them (e.g., Hogue grip, laser sight, scopes, and additional uppers).

[Lycanthrope]

Easy Hoss. Just breathe........

The cheapest solution is to have a 4 rail gas block installed. You can then mount the laser under the barrel. Otherwise, you need a rigid, full float type of handguard to mount a sighting system or it's worthless. The handguards that are not rigid and floated are fine for lights, but that's it.

Daniel Defense is very good, but not your only option. You could get a FIRSH handguard by Oly or use a free float tube by JP and then add a picatinny rail bolt on.

V Tac by JP (I've made most links hot, so click 'em!)

That will only set you back around $150.

Don't get hung up on the combat gear. JP is good enough for 3 gun and we bounce rifles off stuff all the time!

The JARD trigger is another drop in trigger type. The other options I listed will likely work, so don't sweat it. Most good trigger systems run $140-$200. A standard trigger group is just that....a standard single stage trigger than comes on all AR's. These guns are modular and many of the manufacturers use teh exact same parts from the exact same companies! Wilson (NOT Wilson combat) makes barrels for several main line brands...... You can get the standard trigger group down to 3.5lbs just by treaking the springs, but you may have some creep.

The DPMS guns are excellent choices, HOWEVER, for $1100 you can have a Gator upper with carbon fiber OR DPMS aluminum tube (that will accept adaptors I believe), a chromes bolt and carrier, a muzzle brake (should you wish), match barrel and JP adjustable gas block (you can adjust the gas pressure to match your loads). All that with a guranteed .5 MOA. No shelf rifle comes close to that for the price....period. You don't need a 1.15 barrel. I can watch the strikes in my 20" gun and it's .960 I believe (too lazy to mic it) 1:9 twist handles 70gr bullets. Unless you really want to shoot heavier out of .223, you don't always need 1:8 or 1:7. If you want 1:7, go White Oak. They make their living shooting 600 yards at Camp Perry. Don;t get hung up on barrel length. Longer barrels are no more accurate and with good bullets you can fragment much farther than ball ammo.



Even if you choose to go DPMS, just get the upper and mate it to a RRA lower.

IT WON'T MAKE IT LESS EFFECTIVE AND WILL SAVE YOU MONEY.

Really.....I'm just trying to clear up some things I've learned over several thousand dollars and competition.

Now on to the AR10........that's not a bad price at all.

What else you want to know?

[fabsroman]

You guys have been great with the help, and I really like that V-Tac by JP and the JP gas block. Accessory problem solved.

Now, if I order the RRA lower with the standard trigger from eaglefirearms, I believe it is going to cost me $220. A Jewell trigger will be about $200. The Gator upper will run about $895. The V-Tac will cost me $150. Am I missing anything other than the scope and the laser? The total on that package is $1,475. Not terrible.

Again, if I go with the lower and upper purchase, I am seriously thinking about getting the Dedicated Technologies upper in .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, or .25 WSSM. Probably would got with .223 WSSM, and that upper is $732, so the entire gun would cost me $1,312, but I would like to get the JP gas block for the upper.

Are these guys at all flexible with pricing. For instance, I do not need the hand guard on the Dedicated Technologies upper since I want to use the V-Tac. Would they give me a credit for it? Same goes for the gas block.

How hard is it to put everything together? I don't think I will have a problem putting the upper on the lower, but what about the V-Tac and the gas block. To give you a little back ground on me, none of my guns (shotguns or bolt rifles) have ever been to a smith. I have installed Timney triggers in my Ruger MKII77 and Remington 700 and also installed all the scopes on my rifles. Can I do all these mods myself without having to take the gun to a smith?

[Lycanthrope]

If you go Gator, you won't really need the V tac as you can opt to use a DPMS aluminum float tube versus the carbon fiber for no cost. Jim Clark is a custom smith and they are great to deal with. I'm sure you could ask for just about any option and you would get it. Ask about ordering a V Tac and having ti shipped to them. You can also save $60 on that Gator by becoming a USPSA member (they give a $100 discount to members). A year membership will cost you $40....so the net gain is another $60.

The JP block is a nice feature if you play with A LOT of loads AND you ever go with a lightened bolt carrier to make the most of absolute recoil control. Otherwise, in all honesty, you really aren't going to need it on your gun. Gas blocks aren't that hard to change, but it's not something you can switch from rifle to rifle easily. If you want it, call your smith and just ask if you can ship them one. I know very little about Dedicated Tech, but most everyone who deals in AR's understands how people like to trick them out.

Putting an AR together is easy. I built the thin barreled kit gun above from stripped receiver at the kitchen table with some punches in about 45 minutes on my first try.

Now....I am about to impart upon you overload.... I didn't do this easlier because it's Pandora's box and a lot of information is incorrect at this link. Anyhow....

www.ar15.com

Arfcom is highly skewed to the military opinion on guns and is not newbie friendly. In fact, it can be the roughest gun forum on the net if you ask a question that is the least bit controversial. They hate match triggers, they hate anything but Colts, they hate anything but Aimpoints and Eotechs, they have tens of thousands of paying members (yeah, I'm one).........most of which have never even used half of what they are spouting information about (I'm not one of those). So, please don't get caught in the "gospel" over there. (They have members who have post counts over 40,000........how much shooting do you think those people get?)

Arfcom does, however, have a all the guides and info to make any changes to your gun.

Click me for Guides

Otherwise do a forum search under "Ar15" and then "Build your Own" for anything else.