Here we go again with gas prices

[Skyline]

toxic 111..................exactly right. We have the bio-diesel plants being started here in manitoba. We might see it available to us in the next couple of years, once everything is geared up to handle it.

As for vehicle Fabs............I never buy new.........never!! I like to let others take the hit if they want to in the first year or two of ownership. I can get the same vehicle when it is two years old with low miles for about half the price.

Owning a brand 'New' vehicle just doesn't give me a rush. Finding something that will do what I need it to do and low payments or a cash deal.....that gives me a rush.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

I have a feeling fabs owns stock in flex fuel vehicles. We all know just as we find a better way and all convert to an alternative sorce, the demand goes up and so does the cost. Look at natural gas for an example. My house still has the pipes installed to run 3 gas fireplaces along with the gas lights. This was the alternative to coal and oil way back in the early years of the 1900's.... don' t ask my what my heating bills were this winter with the cheaper natural gas...and every gas fireplace is sealed shut... look at bottled water. Who in the world would ever think of paying a buck for a bottle of water? But we do. Sure a small vehicle even a motorcycle would be nice mpg transportation but try to haul my toolbox on the back of one..Some people just need the bigger vehicles in their everyday life. No slam to you fabs but some need to haul more than a briefcase of papers. It goes like this.....
FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
FEB 06 THE COST OF 1 GALLON OF GASOLINE

20% IS TAXES.....FED, STATE, LOCAL ETC ETC..
11% IS DISTRIBUTION AND MARKETING
10% IS REFINING
59% IS THE COST OF THE CRUDE

What I see needed for right now is a little tax relief from our government.......Look in England and the $6.00 a gallon there...why?..because 78% of the cost is TAXES.....Heck, way back in the early 70's I had to pay $2.50 for a gallon in Germany..and I shuddered since I was pumping it at our gastations for $.25 a few months before.
Look at the cost of a pack of smokes...is taxes...we need a good lawyer to work on the tax problem here in this Country..
ah heck with it...I'm going fishing....can only use my electric trolling motor though......glad I have my spring gobbler hanging out close to home for next week...

No matter where we go....they will just increase the cost in the long run....government greed and I think Pres Bush best get his butt in gear and take a look at how things are here...worry about this place for a change.

[fabsroman]

Skeeter,

If you read all my posts in this thread, you would see that GM makes several flex fuel trucks/SUV's that can haul around your toolbox and Ford makes a flex fuel F-150.

Yeah, E85 might eventually become as expensive as gasoline, but it will still provide our nation with oil independance from the Middle East. If you have to pay $4 a gallon for gasoline, why not pay $3.75 for E85 and help out the country, especially since the E85 motor doesn't cost anything extra and allows you to run the motor on straight gasoline if you want to.

No, I do not have stock in flex fuel vehicles, but metaphorically speaking you could say I have a stock in this nation and the environment.

If you want to heat your house for cheap, but a wood stove and a chain saw and find somebody that will let you cut wood out of their woods. I drove my F-350 on one trip this fall, took my brother's 12' trailer on it, and met my dad at the farm with his F-150. In a single afternoon, with my brother's help and a friend's help, we loaded up both trucks and the trailer and both my dad and my brother had enough wood for the entire year.

Regarding the conversion from gasoline to E85, I do not think it is impossible. The government outlawed the use of leaded gasoline many years ago. Auto makers could not make vehicles that used leaded gasoline. Gas stations continued to carry the stuff until the demand entirely went away, and they installed the unleaded pumps. They even ended up installing three different grades of gasoline. So, why is it so hard to install an E85 pump? If possible, they could do away with the medium grade gasoline now offered and offer E85 out of it, but I do not know if this is feasible (i.e., can E85 be pumped through the same system as gasoline).

[Skinny Shooter]

to get this thread back on track, this article states what I was trying to articulate earlier: http://www.readingeagle.com/re/lead/1515605.asp

Over a barrel
High prices for oil spill over into everyday life because many household goods have petroleum as a prime component.


If gas prices are giving you a headache, this could give you a migraine: Gasoline is only one of many items you buy that is petroleum-based and dependent on the price of a barrel of oil.
Even the trusty aspirin has ties to the oil industry.

So do the shaving cream, toothpaste, deodorant and mouthwash you use daily.

Even the disposable diapers covering a baby's backside are made, in part, from oil.

That means that as the price of a barrel of oil goes up, the cost of manufacturing these products goes up.

Many Americans don't realize that a barrel of oil is used for more than just gasoline, said Karen Matusic, spokeswoman for the American Petroleum Institute in Washington.

For instance, petroleum is a key ingredient in plastics manufacturing, she said.

“I think a lot of this gets taken for granted,” she said.

The price of oil can hit you at the gas pumps and on the road.

The cost of a ton of oil-based asphalt has gone up $93 in the past year, said Roger J. Schmidt, president of EJB Paving & Materials Company, Route 61, Ontelaunee Township.

That means some municipalities are taking a longer look at what roads they may pave this year, Schmidt said.

Last April, EJB purchased liquid petroleum at $215 a ton, but now is purchasing the same product for $308 a ton, Schmidt said.

“It is increasing so fast we can't keep up,” he said.

Edward Leh, a Centre Township supervisor, said the cost of asphalt means the township may pave fewer miles of roads this year.

“It's putting us into a bind,” he said.

Other local companies are also feeling the pinch of $70 for a barrel of oil.

Crude futures recovered from four days of losses, lifted by supply worries after the International Atomic Energy Agency said Iran defied the United Nations Security Council by enriching uranium. A barrel of light crude rose 91 cents to settle at $71.88 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Richard Partlow, general manager of specialty products for Brentwood Industries Inc., Reading, said the cost of raw plastic purchased by his company has increased 25 percent in the past year.

The company takes raw plastic and uses molds to turn it into a variety of consumer products such as wheelbarrows and parts for trucks, Partlow said.

The company is hit doubly by high oil prices because it relies on petroleum heat to run the equipment, Partlow said.

“It is a significant hardship for us and our customers,” he said.

All of those increases in manufacturing mean the cost of the finished product goes up, Partlow said.

“Ultimately, it ends up at the consumer's doorstep,” he said.

[fabsroman]

Okay, that one doesn't have a fix like the gasoline demand with alternative fuel, hybrid, and electric vehicles; however, if the demand for gasoline went down, don't you think the supply of oil might be a little higher, thereby resulting in a lower price. Is gasoline the main thing extracted from oil and the main reason for the hike in oil prices? Are the rest of these "by-product" prices just going up because the price of oil is going up from the gasoline demand, or would the demand for oil still be the same to produce all these by-product items if we no longer needed gasoline from oil?

[L. Cooper]

I believe it was in the mid 70's that the total energy cost to produce crops in North America became more than the energy contained in those crops.

Ethanol is a good use for otherwise wasted crops but it will never be a true alternative source of energy for vehicles. It can suplement, but never replace.

I don't think growing food to fuel vehicles will ever be a sustainable solution to anything.

[larryours]

Tell them to bring down the price barrel of oil, or up the price of a bushel of wheat to match the oil, after they miss a few meals, they might get the point . They might have us over a barrel but they wouldn't be in the kitchen

[fabsroman]

Okay, if I'm not mistaken, ethanol can be made with any biological waste products from crops (e.g., cornstalks, wheat stalks, soy bean left overs). Seems as though we would have plenty of that stuff, but I'm not a farmer so I don't know what that leftover/byproduct stuff is used for. Anybody out there know?

[M.T. Pockets]

Farming is something that I do know about. I grew up on a farm in the 70's & 80's and still work with agriculture on a close basis. I have a cornfield in my back yard.

As for producing alcohol, the ethanol plants use #2 yellow corn. The same corn you'd grind & feed to livestock. I'm not sure of the exact price of corn at the local elevator today, but it's within a few cents of $1.80 per bushel. To put this in perspective, corn was over $3.00 for most of the 1980's. So, even without adjusting for inflation, the cost of the raw product to produce ethanol has never been lower. In the 1970's grain prices were almost twice what they are today, so ethanol production was not feasible, plus during the cold war the U.S. liked to have a large supply of grain on hand and didn't want it used for anything but food. Archer Daniels Midland has one of the largest ethanol plants in the U.S. 12 miles south of my house and they're making money hand over fist.

The largest ethanol plant contractor in the U.S. has is HQ 15 miles on to the other side of my house, he's got 35 plants in the works and on the drawing board for the next two years. So, things are gearing up for more alcohol production. I'm not sure if it will put a dent in the whole fuel supply, but there is an effort being made.

Technology has impacted farming as much as any other industry over the past decades. Now in my area an average corn crop would be 170 bu. per acre, a good crop over 220. 25 years ago you could have cut that in half. I'm confident that if it were feasible, production could increase even more.

As for the stalks and husks, they're either harvested for livestock feed/bedding or plowed under to add humus back to the soil.

High fuel costs hit farmers hard, since the economists classify them as "Price Taker's" they have no control over the price of their product, they can't pass on their fuel costs like other industries do with fuel charges. Fertilizers are also petroleum based and that increases production costs as well.

I'm convinced that American farmers could provide a reliable, relatively cheap supply of corn and soybeans. Supplies can be stored for years and an American farmer isn't going to hi-jack a plane and fly it into a building.

I think the biggest problem is with the whole marketing of ethanol. Archer Daniels Midland is about the only game in town. Anybody know who their CEO is ?? A former oil company executive. They could have a bigger monopoly over ethanol than the oil companies have with petroleum.

[fabsroman]

I wish I knew something about ethanol production, because it seems like it might be a lucrative field. Of course, it would probably cost millions of dollars to get into, but I would start out refining the stuff myself and opening a couple of fuel stations around here. Of course, I would also offer gasoline in those fuel stations, but there would be big banners advertizing flex fuel/E85.

I don't like the idea that big oil is getting involved in the ethanol production because it seems as though they will do the same thing they are doing with gasoline. With the profits they have made the first quarter of 2006, I seriously think there is some price fixing going on and it pisses me off. I am all for capitalism, but not the least bit interested in monopolies unless they are state run (e.g., natural gas and electric), and I think natural gas now has some competition in my area based upon the supplier I can choose.

[M.T. Pockets]

E-85 is available in most everytown in the upper midwest, but not at every station The biggest problem with marketing it is the lack of pump availability. Most stations already carry different grades of gas, some diesel, some ethanol and some biodiesel, and they don't have room to stock E-85 until there is more demand for it.

I respect Brazil for their independence of foreign oil. They managed to do it with sugar cane produced ethanol.

Fabs, if you want to invest in the ethanol industry let me know. They're popping up all over around here and the individual plants are set up as LLP's and they're always looking for investors. However, not all of them are well managed or successful and they can fall on hard times financially, then ADM eats them up like a dog eating meat that fell on the floor.

When this industry matures, ADM will be the 800 lb. gorilla. Buy stock in ADM and hang on, they're up about 100% in the last 3 years the way it is. Biodiesel is not as far along and even farmers disagree on this topic, they like to sell it, but they don't like to use it in their equipment yet...But, I think it does have a future.

[fabsroman]

MT,

If I had bought ADM yesterday and sold it today, I would have made over 10%. Not a bad profit for a single day. Alas, I didn't buy it, so now I am sitting here wondering if I should buy it. Might ponder it over the weekend and buy it on Monday or Tuesday.