Classic handguns

[Rev]

Originally posted by BILLY D.
Rev an Adam


The only Smiths that I seen that hit the shop were Model 19's with cracked forcing cones. Any other Smiths that came in were for minor repairs only, like cleaning.

The 19's were really suseptible to hot loading. They found them to be undigestable in large portions.

Best wishes, Bill

Billy D, that's what I had always heard. That those K frame .357's just didn't have enough "meat" to stand up to 40,000 psi loads, even though the cylinders didn't bulge with their "new" (1950's) heat treatment. Of course, I had also heard warnings about N frame Smith's suffering from full .41 or .44 mag loads. That, it seems, was incorrect. I've never had a K frame S&W other than a K-22 for a short while.

I'm glad to get some definitive answers on those questions. What a wealth of info there is here!

Rev

[Jack]

The way I heard the S & W Model 19 story is this: S &W was designing that revolver primarily for the police market. At the time the Model 19 was introduced, the standard routine in most PD's was for the officers to carry 357 duty ammo, but practice with 38 wadcutters or other 38 loads- much less powerful than 357 loads.
Under those conditions, when the 19 had lots of low pressure 38's fired in it, and few 357 magnum loads, the revolver did fine, and had the benefits of being lighter than the N frame, and having a smaller grip for small handed users.
So, everyone was happy.
Until police departments began to do more realistic practice, using the ammo they actually carried in the field- 357 magnum. Then those forcing cone cracks began to appear. Smith introduced the L frame to solve the problem- slightly beefed up over the Model 19's K frame, but not as big and heavy as the N frame of the Model 27 , 28, 29, etc. The first L frames had 3 digit model numbers (as I recall 686 was one) and underlug barrels.
That's the story that was floating around when the L frame was introduced, as best I can recall it. How much is truth and how much is fiction, I really don't know.

[BILLY D.]

Jack

That is the story 100% correct as I heard it also. If they would have used the 357 mag loads of today the Model 19 would have fared much better. But it seemed everybody wanted 1500fps+ from their 357.

I can vouch for the heaviness of the Model 27. Mine has a 3 1/2" barrel and after a day in the woods you know you have been packing something on your hip.

I love my 27 though, it reminds me of the combat masterpiece I carried when I was a crewmember on Gunships in 'nam. I still got my Water Buffalo Holster I had custom made in Phan Rang.

Now talk about some industrious little folks those Vietnamese were great. We'd bring them 20MM brass and they make salt and pepper shakers out of them and painted little scenes on them. They were beautiful. They also made beautiful ashtrays and beer mugs out of 155 shells. They truly could turn crap into a chocolate bar.

Dad gum, that got me to thinking, I'm gonna have to try to find a Combat masterpiece to put in that holster.

Best wishes, Bill

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

You are right about the switch from practice wadcutters to "street loads" for qualification. I was instructing our agents then and the lawsuit effecting the change came out of Tennessee, if I recall correctly.

The ruling stated: Cops will practice/qualify with the SAME ammo they carry in their guns on duty."

Adam

[BILLY D.]

OOOOPS. Forgot to add, most of the problems occured with light bullets,110 and 125 grainers. Specificaly 125's.

Thats one thing bad about posting late at night, I get too talkative.

Best wishes, Bill

[Rev]

Originally posted by BILLY D.
OOOOPS. Forgot to add, most of the problems occured with light bullets,110 and 125 grainers. Specificaly 125's.

Thats one thing bad about posting late at night, I get too talkative.

Best wishes, Bill

Not so long ago (25 yrs.?), the 125 gr. bullets were popular in police circles I seem to remember. I think most police depts. require factory rounds for duty. I'd bet the model 19 suffered from those hot old Super Vel .357 loads.

Rev

[Jack]

That might very well be the case, Rev. Some of the early Super Vel stuff really was hot.
And you're giving away your age if you can remember early Super Vel ammo!

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

I remember the first month Lee Juras issued his FIRST Super Vel loads. I met Lee a few months later at an Instructors' Convention. I know it dates me- I got my Social Security check in today's mail. Be well.

Adam

[Tall Shadow]

I must interject my $.02 worth on the "Do S&W revolvers get shot out easy?" debate...

I'd have to say, in my experience....YES! THEY CAN, and Do!

I have personally shot out, or been there when 3 different S&W revolvers have started showing the signs of end shake. It was like you had just upped the powder charge by a few extra grains.....SCARY!

I have been shooting/reloading for 30+ years, and the two people who's guns we were shooting, have been doing it for 40+, and 30+ years respectively. We were NOT shooting unsafe loads, or mistreating the revolvers in any way.

At the same time I was shooting my Ruger Super Black hawk in .44mag, with no problems......and I Still am shooting the same kind of loads today.

The S&Ws that we were shooting....
A 1960's vintage model 29
A brand new (at the time) model 629 hunter (mag-na-port, if I remember correctly)
Another model 29 of unknown vintage.

All three had been shooting reasonable loadings. They had each had individual loads worked up for them, to assure that they were not going to be running over-pressure loads, or suffer them if temperatures would rise. They were not abused, or mistreated in any way, shape or form.
As I said, I have done the same with My Ruger, and it is still just dandy!

We all love S&W guns......But I would ONLY run factory loads in any that I own.
Save the custom loadings for stronger guns.

My $.02
YMMV

Tall Shadow

[Adam Helmer]

Tall Shadow,

Thanks for your 2 cents worth on S&W revolvers.

Why is "end shake" a serious problem with a Smith? At the S&W Armorers's School, we routinely removed "end shake" and tuned up the DA Smiths until they needed tuning again. All Smiths will develop endshake if shot enough because of the way the cylinder is mounted.

Ruger revolvers have a solid center pin for the cylinder, so you will not get end shake.

Adam

[Rapier]

After 25 years of moving steel with a handgun I can say for a fact that the S & W is not very strong at all when compared to the single actions and is not near as strong as the DW guns. I started with a M-27 8 3/8 gun. After two matches it became difficult to keep it together long enough to finish a match so it left home. Over the years, as a match director, I saw many S&W guns come and go, they just would not hold up to heavy bullets with heavy loads.

The suprise gun was the 8 inch silver snake. The Python has a reputation for being weak. However I shot my gun for over two years befor it left home in exchange for two SRMs. When the snake left it was just as accurate as when it arrived, a trophy winner.

I shot two matches a month, practice three times a week and had a range in the back yard. So my guns got a pretty fair work out.
Ed

[Adam Helmer]

Rapier,

You are correct; S&W heavy caliber revolvers do suffer from heavy loads, both factory and reloads.

The heavy cylinder rotates on the barrel of the yoke. Upon firing, the recoil forces the cylinder FORWARD where it peens the end of the barrel of the yoke. Incrementally, the endshake develops.

A Ruger SA revolver has a solid center pin that does not get the peening a Smith does.

Adam

[wrenchman]

I am a wheel gun lover it is what i started out on i have my grand fathers smith it is a nice gun but it is a lite gun.
I like the blue on the older guns they just dont do it like that no more.

[Rapier]

Just realized, I did not intend for my statement to sound like a S&W put down, not at all. I have a lot of respect for the S&W guns. When I decided to carry a handgun, with my rifle, while hunting and not just the handgun by itself, guess what I went looking for? A Smith and why? The old Smith 66 four inch might be one of the finest backup handguns to carry afield ever made. Go look for a used one today, around here they bring new gun prices if you can ever find one for sale....
Ed

[Adam Helmer]

Rapier,


I did not read your prior post as a Smith put down; rather, I thought you were a fellow S&W Armorer. Heavy caliber Smiths do batter the end of the barrel of the yoke and they need to be adjusted periodically-I do it all the time.

I like old Smiths and tune mine up, as needed. Be well.

Adam