"Locked and Cocked" is not ok with Mike!

[buckhunter]

Combat is one thing. Always cock & locked. For me when I carried the 45 is was on half cock, chamber full. I praticed enough to thumb it back when needed. In my head it was safer, in reality no it wasn't.

When in the service and on watch, it was a empty chamber and mag inserted,

[Skinny Shooter]

Swift has the right idea.

I also carry my 1911 cocked and locked.
At first it seemed intimidating but it was designed that way.
I will probably never be a Vic and am defintely not an expert.
If violence is suddenly thrust upon me, there may not be time to do anything but seek cover as the safety is thumbed off as I draw.
Racking the slide to chamber a round while fending off an assailant in most situations would be impossible and may only get you hurt or worse.

I've carried a glock and a centurion. Didn't keep them for long and went back to a 1911 because its the most comfortable fitting handgun I've shot. Thanks Uncle John!
My Springy XD45 points almost as naturally as a 1911 and do not hesitate to carry it.

Adam, has Mike gotten himself a revolver or another 1911?

[Dutchman01]

I just don't understand the problems so many seem to have with cocked and locked. I just don't get it.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I just don't understand the problems so many seem to have with cocked and locked.

Dutchman;
I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with people (experts) telling us NEVER to trust a mechanical safety, which is basically what you are doing when carrying cocked and locked.

[Gil Martin]

You know the first round is going to feed properly because it is already in the tube.

Carrying with an empty chamber is not only noisy and takes time to chamber a round, but also requires two hands to get it done. All the best...
Gil

[Dutchman01]

Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge

Dutchman;
I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with people (experts) telling us NEVER to trust a mechanical safety, which is basically what you are doing when carrying cocked and locked.

I'll buy that. However, I have to wonder how these same people feel about glocks.

[popplecop]

I agree with cocked and locked as the way to car. In the fifties in Korea, mine as carried on have cocked with a round in the chamber of course, was not my primary weapon. I like the 1911 frame and try to keep all my semi autos on this frame. I bought a Para Carry Nine of CCW, it is LDA 3" barrel. Other than being double action looks like any 1911 same controls, and will say the light double action is a joy to shoot.

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01,

Welcome to the Forum.

I have carried the 1911 and Glock 19 on duty for many years before I retired. Folks who balk at "Locked and Cocked" merely do not understand John Browning's 1911. Very few handgun owners shoot enough rounds to really KNOW their handguns. We fired 750 rounds for Transition Training to go from revolvers to the Glock 17/19.

The instructions from HQ mandated we pack ALL revolvers for Turn-in to be unloaded, securely packed "With revolver safety catches engaged." I called Washington DC and asked the author of those instructions to tell me where the "revolver safety catch" was located. After a bit of time on "Hold" the female agent admitted she "only took her revolver out of her filing cabinent for semi-annual qualification" and was sure there was a "Safety" on her revolver when she issued the instructions, but could not locate one on her M10 S&W at present. Big Duh there!

Most agents were not competent with firearms as I determined in 10 years of being the firearms instructor for all of the 100 agents in New England. I suspect civillians, who have to buy their ammo, are even less firearms competent. Thus, the M1911 is a huge mystery to most handgunners.

Adam

[Dutchman01]

Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

Dutchman01,

Welcome to the Forum.

I have carried the 1911 and Glock 19 on duty for many years before I retired. Folks who balk at "Locked and Cocked" merely do not understand John Browning's 1911. Very few handgun owners shoot enough rounds to really KNOW their handguns. We fired 750 rounds for Transition Training to go from revolvers to the Glock 17/19.

The instructions from HQ mandated we pack ALL revolvers for Turn-in to be unloaded, securely packed "With revolver safety catches engaged." I called Washington DC and asked the author of those instructions to tell me where the "revolver safety catch" was located. After a bit of time on "Hold" the female agent admitted she "only took her revolver out of her filing cabinent for semi-annual qualification" and was sure there was a "Safety" on her revolver when she issued the instructions, but could not locate one on her M10 S&W at present. Big Duh there!

Most agents were not competent with firearms as I determined in 10 years of being the firearms instructor for all of the 100 agents in New England. I suspect civillians, who have to buy their ammo, are even less firearms competent. Thus, the M1911 is a huge mystery to most handgunners.

Adam

That's so funny. On the other hand the idea most agents were not competent with firearms I find completely mystifying. I mean, we're not talking rocket science here. So, tell me, does this same agency feel completely ok with the glocks? Are there problems with the glocks? I've been hearing police are shooting themselves with them doing things like....reholstering them. Any truth to these rumours?

[8X56MS]

I stopped trying to convince folks how to carry properly years ago. It is their life, not mine.

[popplecop]

Never heard of anyone shooting themselves while holstering a GLOCK, probably the most common carried pistol by LE in my area. !911 is still my favorite combat pistol, and if not using my Para Ord, my 1911s are cocked and locked, lot of folks don't relize that there is a grip safety that has to pressed before it will fire too. I agree with 8X56MS.

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam

[Dutchman01]

Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam

This is what I've been hearing for quite some time. I'm just wondering just how dangerous is cocked and locked compared with glocks. It may be something no one can answer satisfactorily.



source

Gun maker Glock frequently sued over safety;
Model of deputy’s sidearm that killed driver in accidental shooting has detractors and defenders

By Marc Dadigan staff writer

November 9, 2003


INDIAN RIVER COUNTY -- The manufacturer of the handgun a St. Lucie County sheriff's deputy used in an accidental fatal shooting of a 35-year-old man Oct. 10 is one of the gun companies most commonly sued for product liability, according to a Washington, D.C. watchdog group.

The .40-caliber, semiautomatic Glock 22, manufactured by Georgia-based Glock Inc., has been named in at least 50 lawsuits in the past eight years, said Josh Horwitz, acting director of the non-profit Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence.

"There lawsuits are for a variety of defects. We think it's a dangerous design, but it's a gun that's become ubiquitous in law enforcement," Horwitz said.

A 1999 Washington Post article reported Glocks were being used by half of all law-enforcement agencies in the United States. Officials extol the superiority of the weapon because of its power, light weight and accuracy. However, critics claim the Glock handguns have a hair trigger that leads to accidental discharges and lament its lack of external safeties.

The Indian River County sheriff's deputies traded in their revolvers for .45-caliber Glock 21's more than a year ago, and Sheriff Roy Raymond has continued to trumpet their praises.

"If you fire a Glock, every shot has the same trigger [pressure] from the first shot to the last shot," he said. "I've bought one personally, and I don't see any downside to the Glocks."

Earlier this month, St. Lucie County Deputy Ronald Stickney accidentally shot and killed Nathan Tompkins with his .40-caliber Glock 22 as he was trying to remove Tompkins from his vehicle. Stickney had pursued Tompkins on U.S. 1 for a few minutes before Tompkins pulled over in Indian River County.

St. Lucie County sheriff's officials aren't commenting on the case until they complete an administrative review.

Safety features

Holden Kriss, range manager for the Indian River County Shooting Range in Sebastian, said the lack of the external safety for the Glocks is offset by three internal safeties. A safety attached to the trigger of the Glock makes it impossible to be accidentally fired if dropped.

"It's a very safe gun, a very high-quality gun," he said. "I haven't encountered any problems with it in more than 20 years of running ranges." .......

[Dutchman01]

Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

Dutchman01 and popplecop,

There have been many accidental discharges with the Glocks and it was mostly operator error. One agent shot himself in the right butt cheek on the rapid fire stage, that is 12 rounds in 30 seconds. It seems he got a grip on the holstered gun's trigger and fired it while still holstered. Another agent took off a toe because his finger was on the Glock trigger as he was holstering his gun-thus pulling the trigger.

I always wore my Second Chance vest when instructing agents on the firing line.

Adam

In a related/unrelated vein when the classes come to requalify for chp I always quit shooting and go and stand behind them until they're done. I've seen some scary stuff out there.

[Adam Helmer]

Dutchman01,

We always budgeted 10% of needed qualification ammo for individual practice between qualification cycles. Only 4 or 5 agents out of 100 ever asked for a few boxes of ammo to get ready for the semi-annual qualification. Bottom Line: Darn few of our agents were really competent with their issue arms. It was even worse with the shotguns and subguns. I usually shot off the practice ammo between cycles in my Glock 19 and MP-5.

Adam