16 Gauge Blues

[Dutchman01]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a 16 ga. Handloading for it makes sense as the selection of 16 ga. shotshells these days in small communities isn't making it.

[skeet]

Sounds neat to talk of reloading 16 ga. But Being in the reloading business for all those years I can tell you that 16 ga components are as hard to find as the ammo. 16 ga empties are just as bad. I know...I know. The specialty companies have all kinds of stuff for reloading. BUT ..do they? And the expense of shipping items with the necessary wait makes it end up being too expensive. Might as well just buy the loaded specialty ammo from those same companies. After a few cases of ammo...well quite a few...I made the decision years ago that the 16, while being a good gauge etc, is not neessary for my uses. The 20 will do just as well and maybe better. The 16 is kinda neat for nostalgia reasons though. Kinda like the 28 ga, which I love to shoot. Kind of unnecessary. Anything it will do the 20(or 16) will do infinitely better

[greymule]

I have a 16 ga. Remington 870 that was made in the 1950's. It is light to carry and will do anything I need for small and upland game.



Greymule

[dovehunter]

Originally Posted by skeet

... But Being in the reloading business for all those years I can tell you that 16 ga components are as hard to find as the ammo. 16 ga empties are just as bad...

Not including empty shells, the plastic wads are the only component unique to a 16 ga. All of the gunshops around central Virginia that carry reloading components at all carry both Winchester and Remington 16 ga. wads. Empty cases (at least for me) are not a problem, I just buy loaded rounds and shoot them the first time. Dick's Sporting Goods has for about the last month or so had 16 ga. Remington Game Loads in sizes 6, 7-1/2, & 8 for $5.99 a box. I did buy a case of them at that price.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm you see few 16 bores here, the 20 Bore has been growing in popularity for a few years, I think it's a fashion fad more than anything but hey what do I know.

I did pick up a single break barrel Baikal model 18 in 20 Bore but hey it was dirt cheap have shot a few things with it but honestly cannot see the hype about the 20 bore. To be honest I don't the shotguns much even the Pheasant I shot yesterday evening was with a .22 LR .

The 6mm remington I favored over the 243 Win due to the cartridge shape. I like the longer neck and steeper shoulder. However it appears that it's about to be out numbered eve here as in a month or two I will have three rifles chambered for the .243 and still only the one 6mm Rem and I didn't go looking for any of them .

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Brithunter;
The 3" 20 gauge pretty much caused the decline of the 16 gauge here on this side of the pond. That, and a few other things (such as building 16's on 12 gauge frames and decreasing the various shot size/payload offerings of 16 gauge shells) helped boost sales of the 20 gauge and made 16 gauge shotguns disappear from manufacturer's catalogs.

What people don't realize is that while the payload may be the same, the shot string is longer, ect. ect. and the ballistics aren't the same.

At any rate, I have a small collection of 16s and use them frequently....even for waterfowling. Hope to take a deer some day with my Ithica M37 and a slug.
Take care................

[skeet]

Part of what Mr 16 says is true. But the 16 was losing(had lost) market share before the 3" 20 ga really got cranked up. The 16 was a great size gun in a double I guess. It was a bit trimmer than a 12...but the same thing happened to the 10 ga way back yonder..the 12 just erased it from the scene for all intents and purposes. The thing that really knocked the 16 out of the park was the demise of the double..and that happened because of other reasons.. The depression first and foremost..the repeaters just took over because the nice trim little doubles just couldn't be made as cheaply as the repeaters..and the returning service men wanted repeaters...like they had been using. The same thing happened in England..especially after the First war..they lost so much gun making talent.and after the war the cost of the beautiful English doubles skyrocketed out of the price range of the common man. Happened here after the 2nd war. And the thing that really pushed the 16 in it's grave was..yep the 16 was a good gauge..better than the 20 by far...until the advent of the newer plastic wadded ammo. Then the 16 really couldn't kick the sand in the 20's face any longer The one ounce 20 and the 1 1/8 ounce 16 were ballistic twins for all intents and purposes..except the 20 actually patterned a bit better. The 16 lagged in upgrades as it just wasn't as popular and a nice 20 ga O/U just won out over the 16 in any form. The thing that finally filled in the 16's grave was the advent of steel shot. Sure they make it now..but at what kind of ballistics? Nah...the 16 died a (maybe) undeserved death. But the death occured because of apathy. And that isn't going to change. The naysayers have been predicting the demise of the 12 for years too...but that really isn't gonna happen. Not in the US anyway. And by the way..in repeaters the 16 and 20 were usually made on the same frame. M-12s in 16 and 20 were on the 20 frame. In fact the M-12 was made in 20 ga first. In the 1100 870 guns until 1970 or so they used the 12 ga frame for the 12 16 and 20. Many other guns used the 20 ga frame for the 16 too. In fact I think the Ithaca m-37 16 and 20 were on the same frame. I may be wrong on that but the 37 WAS developed from the original gun made by Remington..the M-17...which was only made in 20 ga. So don't blame the demise of the 16 on the guns they were made in..look at the real reasons..unpopularity and poor ammo compared to the rest of the gauges

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

That is a great write up. As far as the 12 gauge going bye-bye, I don't really see that happening. Now, the 10 gauge might go bye-bye because the number of offerings in it are pretty slim right now. Beretta and Benelli don't offer anything in a 10 gauge, or I would own it. Now, correct me if I am wrong on that because I haven't really kept up with the Beretta and Benelli websites recently. Too busy with kids and work.

[Skinny Shooter]

I was given a 16ga LC Smith several years ago.
The barrel had rust spots and the stock was beat up.
Left the stock alone and put some TLC into the barrel.
Its a great small game gun and the 870 12ga now stays mostly at home.

[popplecop]

Have a 60 year old love affair with the 16 ga. I have shotguns in every gauge from 10 to 410 bore, including a 24 ga. And with exception of the 10, 24 and 410 have multiple guns in each gauge so I do have some limited experience with shotguns: To say the 16 gauge is dead "Bah Humbug, a pox on you", and the 20 is not on a par with the 16.

[skeet]

Didn't mean to rain on your parade. Not saying the 16 is dead..just not a LOT of use for it. You can't find much in the way of good ammo in the 16. And as for it being so much better than the 20..Not even close. I can do just as much with a 7/8 oz load in a good 20 ga shell as you can do with an ounce in the 16...mainly cause you can't find GOOD 16 ga shells anymore. I've had 16's when there was good ammo available. Used one for a year or 2 when we had to go to this useless excuse steel shot. We still lose more birds from steel use than would have died from lead JMHO. It killed birds ok with lead but the 3" 20 killed 'em just as well if not better. Win Super XX shells worked even in the 20. And except for maybe some pheasant shooting the 1 oz 20 is all that is usually needed. They DO make GOOD 20 ga loads that are better than the average 16 ga shells you can buy. Not the fault of the gauge...the fault lies with the non popularity of the 16. A few years ago Remington made a run of 16 ga 870s and I think even 1100's in a nice trim sized frame. Lasted a whole year or so..In fact they sold so poorly that Remington closed them out really cheap to the wholesalers. They even had Rem chokes. You can still find some new in the box guns. So my predictions The 10 ga...especially with the gummit making us use steel still has a viable place in the waterfowl haunts. the 12 will be king for years to come.. the 16 will slowly fade even more and probably ...after our generations are gone..may fade away(in the US) permanently...the 20 will stay with us strongly especially in the upland coverts...the 28 ga will disappear for the most part except on the skeet fields...and the 410?? Well it'll stay with us for skeet and there is a larger number of people using that 410 in the field than there are using the 16 I think...so it'll stay with us. The 16 24 and 32 gauges are going to continue in use in Europe but hunting and shooting is dwindling over there more all the time..mainly due to numbers of people and restrictions on firearms...So they will probably be lost in the future even over there.. More's the pity. How many here remember the 9mm Shotshell?? Only place to find ammo for them anymore is an occassional run made by Fiocchi. Luckily I found 10 boxes at a gun show a few years ago. I'll be able to shoot my ol Winchester M-36 for a while anyway... I've actually shot a few doves with the little feller. But for all intents and purposes..if IS a dead gauge.

[dovehunter]

Originally Posted by skeet

...I've had 16's when there was good ammo available...

What do you mean by "good ammo"? At least around here, if Winchester, Remington, or Federal makes it in a 16 ga. load, you can find it. Granted you may have to do some shopping around and/or available quantities may not be on par with those for 12 or 20 ga. shells and the 16s may cost more, but you can find them.

I don't disagree that a 20 (especially the 3") will do whatever a 16 will. For that matter, for upland bird hunting, doves, etc., I think the 20 will do anything that a 12 will - if the shooter does his part. I just enjoy shooting my 16s. They are kind of a novelty and there is something to be said for shooting something that is different from the rest of the pack. And, since I reload, (as long as I can get wads) I can brew up pretty much any kind of load I want.

Incidentally, I have one of those 16 ga. 870 pumps you mentioned. It does have screw-in choke tubes. I even went so far as to purchase an extra 22" barrel for mine for close-in shooting or in the thick stuff. I like the heck out of mine.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by dovehunter

What do you mean by "good ammo"?
I don't disagree that a 20 (especially the 3") will do whatever a 16 will. They are kind of a novelty and there is something to be said for shooting something that is different from the rest of the pack. And, since I reload, (as long as I can get wads) I can brew up pretty much any kind of load I want.

.

What I mean by good ammo.. for the 12..20 28 ga and the 410 bore..You can get some of the best ammo available in the world today. Mainly great target loads..High antimony shot..good wads and proper powder charges. Shells that meet certain performance specs. 16 ga shells are no longer loaded like the others. There just isn't enough demand. Do they make some good loads. Yep sure do but they really aren't available in many areas. As you stated above that you didn't disagree that the 20 will do most anything the 16 will.. And then went on to give one of the reasons the 16 is still shot in some areas today..It is a NOVELTY. I used to use my little 410 D grade 1100 in the dove fields. Mainly because it was a novelty. I could usually shoot a limit of doves with the little thing too. with less than a box of shells. But there was a reason. I waited for very close in shots. 25 yds was a long shot. Most were 10-15 yds..some less. But it was still a novelty. Is the 2 1/2 inch 410 a good dove load? No of course not. Did I start a new thing in the dove fields. Heck no. A couple guys tried it..but didn't wait for close shots..so their trial with the 410 was just that...a trial. As I said..the 16 is certainly a viable gauge for shotgunners. But to remain popular it has to have quality ammunition available and good guns to use it in. Without the demand for ammo there will be no real neat 16 ga guns. Dove and quail loads and rabbit and squirrel loads as well as duck and pheasant loads are for the most part junk. It is called good business sense Not disparaging the gauge..it worked just fine. But with the junk shells that are the most prevalent..the 16 won't compare to any good target loads available in the 12 and 20..maybe not even to the better 28 ga field loads.

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by skeet

What I mean by good ammo.. for the 12..20 28 ga and the 410 bore..You can get some of the best ammo available in the world today. Mainly great target loads..High antimony shot..good wads and proper powder charges. Shells that meet certain performance specs. 16 ga shells are no longer loaded like the others. There just isn't enough demand. Do they make some good loads. Yep sure do but they really aren't available in many areas. As you stated above that you didn't disagree that the 20 will do most anything the 16 will.. And then went on to give one of the reasons the 16 is still shot in some areas today..It is a NOVELTY. I used to use my little 410 D grade 1100 in the dove fields. Mainly because it was a novelty. I could usually shoot a limit of doves with the little thing too. with less than a box of shells. But there was a reason. I waited for very close in shots. 25 yds was a long shot. Most were 10-15 yds..some less. But it was still a novelty. Is the 2 1/2 inch 410 a good dove load? No of course not. Did I start a new thing in the dove fields. Heck no. A couple guys tried it..but didn't wait for close shots..so their trial with the 410 was just that...a trial. As I said..the 16 is certainly a viable gauge for shotgunners. But to remain popular it has to have quality ammunition available and good guns to use it in. Without the demand for ammo there will be no real neat 16 ga guns. Dove and quail loads and rabbit and squirrel loads as well as duck and pheasant loads are for the most part junk. It is called good business sense Not disparaging the gauge..it worked just fine. But with the junk shells that are the most prevalent..the 16 won't compare to any good target loads available in the 12 and 20..maybe not even to the better 28 ga field loads.

Yep. Many people do not understand that those bulk boxes of "Dove" loads are poop. I dove hunt with Remington STS Nitro shells in #7.5. Most people do not even know what high antimony shot is, or how shot deformation weakens patterns. The rest of my hunting loads, I try to load myself. The manufactured Hevi-Shot loads by Remington are pretty good though.

Now, the question is, which went away first, the ammo for the 16 gauge or the 16 gauge guns?

As far as I am concerned, if you own a 12 gauge and 20 gauge gun, there is almost no need for the 16 gauge. I made a 40+ yard shot on a dove with my 20 gauge, and my dad's jaw almost hit the floor. I just do not think most people have the ability to use a 20 gauge.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

Now, the question is, which went away first, the ammo for the 16 gauge or the 16 gauge guns?

. I just do not think most people have the ability to use a 20 gauge.

Fabs..you know I had a gun shop and reloading supply business on the shore. For 35 yrs. I sold 16 ga ammo for a while. The demand just went away. There were lots of GOOD 16 ga guns available. I even bought a few. I had a 2 barrel Philadelphia Fox in 16. Beautiful gun..shot it well. Just didn't really have a need for it. I shot quail with a really nice Winchester 21 in 20 ga..or an 1100 standard skeet gun in 20. The 16 was just not needed. Tried it on doves and it was ok. They actually had 16 ga one ounce target loads good ammo too. Killed em just as well as a 12 or 20. Shells cost a bit more and were harder to buy...even for my business. The demand for the shells disappeared before the guns, my friend. There were a few old farmers(hey I'm one of them??) that continued to shoot the 16..Croppers for the most part. Poor enough that they didn't have the money for a new gun...and the 16's were selling cheap so they used what was cheap. Share croppers went the way of the buffalo on the shore...just like the demand for 16's. BTW was doing a gun show this weekend and saw a nice 16 double...hammer gun in about 90 percent. Sold too..for 1200 bucks..but this is food for another thread

BTW Fabs..I don't think that the ability to use a 20 isn't there.. I think it is the perception that it isn't as big a gun so it won't shoot as well. The 20 is enough gun for most upland situations and only really out of it's league on most waterfowl ...in the average shooters hands. Many years ago(lead shot days) I shot teal with a 28 ga at very short ranges and it worked fine...but is it a duck gun??.. No....only in the right situations which are few