expensive .380's

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Well Done! I enjoyed reading your "ramblings." You made a lot of sense and I agree with all you said.

Adam

[kt]

16 gauge... great post... and the debate rages on.. thanks for the input guys
kt

[GoodOlBoy]

16 you make alot of good points, however there is an extrapolation that can be formed using pine board, phone books, etc etc etc. If I can't shoot it through a tin can, and it's competition will shoot through three then I am FAR more likely to go with the competition simply for ease of getting said projectile where it needs to go. Of course there is no magic bullet, but that doesn't stop me from not wanting to carry a bb gun instead of a 44, or a 45. I am not saying the 380 is a bb gun by any means, but compare to a 40 a 41 a 44 a 45 etc etc etc it might as well be. The question stands. In you opinion is a expensive 380 worth it. My answer stands. In my opinion no. I can save money, and still shoot a stouter caliber MORE LIKELY to do the job. There are no guarantees in a firefight. I am a certified medic and rescue diver (certified in both as well as five other dive specialties in 1994-1996 Nacogdoches Texas at Diver's Depot), and I have worked for and with law enforcement (the darkest four years of my life). I have seen a 25 auto used to kill a man, and I have SEEN a man shot with a 380 auto in the head that survived (the bullet traveled under the hide around his skull and exited just behind an ear a fluke no doubt but if I were him I would catch up on my church tithes) But I reiterate. IN MY OPINION (and only my opinion) the 380 is TOO light a caliber to carry for defense of myself and my family when there are better rounds to do the job. What you choose to carry to defend yourself and yours is up to you.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

If I can't shoot it through a tin can, and it's competition will shoot through three then I am FAR more likely to go with the competition simply for ease of getting said projectile where it needs to go. Of course there is no magic bullet, but that doesn't stop me from not wanting to carry a bb gun instead of a 44, or a 45.

Then at what point do you stop with this type of thinking? Do you quit carrying your .44 magnum in favor of a .500 S&W? ....or, instead of a .500, do you go 'back in time' to the Victorian era and carry a Howdah pistol (double barrel of 60 caliber or so)....those were REAL manstoppers! And I'm sure that they will shoot through several boards, phone books, or whatever.
Reminds me of a guy I know...he is a deer hunter, and he thinks that the 7mm magnum isn't powerful enough to kill whitetail deer. Why? Because he shot one with a 175 grain bullet meant for elk....the bullet zipped right through w/o causing any shock, and the deer took off at the sound of the gun shot and was difficult to recover. I suggested he go to a lighter bullet, a lower velocity, or a different bullet with a thinner jacket. Couldn't convince him....he now carries a .300 Weatherby as his "deer rifle". Same guy feels that you can't kill wood ducks with anything less than a 3 1/2 inch magnum 12 gauge loaded with #2 hevishot. I guess I'll tell all those woodies I killed with my 16 gauge and bismuth #5s and 12 gauge 2 3/4" steel #3s that they really aren't dead.....I intend to go down in my freezer and do that after I'm done typing this
If caliber were all there were, then the point would be moot. If this were the case, then we would all be carrying .500s.....but it isn't and we aren't.
There are going to be instances where a full size 1911 isn't going to be practical to carry (the beach, for example). Also, I am VERY skeptical as to how shooting THROUGH something, esp. pine boards or phone books, can be extrapolated back to how a bullet reacts to flesh/bone/fluid.....to me, it sounds as if the theory was born to confirm the research, not the other way around. Shot a lot of wood with my .44 and .357 magnums; never saw any of the live critters I've shot with said calibers react similarly, and I'm willing to bet humans would react differently than animals shot with same rounds, making all those goats shot nothing more than 'research' done to confirm someones pet theory, i.e. the tests were done is such a manner as to skew the results towards one pet theory.
If you wish to believe those theories & extrapolations, so be it.....people tell me that my theory of creation is bunk, but I look at their theory of evolution, and while it can be proven on a small scale with small populations, there are still big gaps that they cannot explain away.
Carry your .44 & .45; I'm sure you shoot them well, and I hope you never have to use it.......

[GoodOlBoy]

Actually right now I usually carry a 38, as I have said many times. AND I never suggested carrying a 50 of any sort. I feel sorry for your buddy if he was stupid enough to buy a mangulum rifle for whitetail when a 30-30 would do it just as good if not better and COST LESS for the job. There is always a balance. In my books if I can depend on a 45 to penetrate X number of pine boards X thick then I can depend on it to penetrate FBI heavy cloth in the winter time...... Ever think of that one? Heavy cotton tshirt, flannel shirt, wool lined denim jacket. Stops a 9mm, 380, 38 spec etc pretty danged effectively. A 357, a 40, a 41, a 44, a 45 penetrates without a hitch. I am not trying to drop chargin rhino, but I have had a knife pulled on me in the winter time, and while I am sure a 38 to the coconut would have done the job the guy was wearing enough padding to stop a 38 for center mass.

Any ccw gun beats NO ccw gun. But I will say it again IMHO a 380 NO MATTER HOW EXPENSIVE AND FANCY will not penetrate heavy cloth in the winter, and that's that. SO IF I was buying a NEW ccw it would NOT be a 380. A accurate 380 is a deadly round, IF you have the time to draw it aim it keep your cool, etc etc etc. I have been in enough simunitions live fire drills and scenarios, have had knives and guns pulled on me that I know what adrenaline does to my hands at point blank range around 30 seconds in. I want something that will do the job even if my shot placement is not perfect, even though it usually is. The problem is that it USUALLY is. nothing is 100%. I am not saying there is a magical bullet, and I believe I have already stated a number of times I don't buy into the fancy ammo, fancy caliber bunk. A 45 colt loaded at cowboy speeds with a 250 or 300 grain LEAD bullet will do a number on ANY target, be it in defense, or for hunting. You can magnumize it if you feel the need, I don't.

You are correct pine does not reflect the way a human body, or animal body will react to a bullet. Thankfully a animal body DOES reflect the way a body will react, and I have had a good amount of luck with a 45 in a whitetail deer. 357 mag wasn't bad (in 158 grain hp, lead, or sjsp) , 38 special wasn't good except in 158 grain lead or sjsp FYI. You are correct the myth of the one shot stop is just that a myth unless you hit the brainstem in which case I refer you back to my earlier comments about adrenaline.

To say it again and again and again. I don't like a 380 based on my OWN experiences. Not in felt recoil, but in end result. Tangible results I have seen, felt, and tasted. I don't believe ANY article, ANY legend, ANY myth, ANY salesman until I have seen it done myself. As an example it is the entire reason why I have left the 327 fed mag out of the conversations. I have heard alot many ways about the round, never seen it in action so I have no opinion on it.

GoodOlBoy

[popplecop]

Early in my career I assisted on 2 homicides. First one was with a 9mm pistol was a Luger, bullet was 124 gr. FMJ as I recall, the 2nd was a .22RF Short from a Ruger Bearcat, 1 shot to the heart. After that most of death investigations were hunting accidents with everything from a .22 RF up to 12 gas. with Slugs including a number with rifles.