Stopping Power

[Adam Helmer]

Trapper7,

In OLD Lyman Reloading Manuals they had a Maximum load of 5.4 grains of Unique behind the 148 grain Wadcutter in the .38 Special. The current Lyman Manuals are far lower in powder charges of Unique. In 2-inch guns, this load works in my Colts and Smiths. Like a lot of my accuracy loads developed in the 1970s and 1980s, the current reloading manuals are lower in powder charge recommendations. In the 7mm RM, .30-06, 6.5x55, and .243, I would never have found my accuracy loads with today's manuals. I never had pressure signs, so I assume they just "Lawyered Up."

Adam

[Jack]

If you're going to push a 38 wadcutter bullet faster than the typical 7-800 fps target load, make sure the bullet is NOT a hollow base wadcutter. The soft swaged commercial wadcutters with a hollow base, like the ones Hornady and Speer sell, have soft lead, and a skirt on the base, like a Civil War era Minie ball. The skirt is meant to expand and seal the bore at low velocity- which it does very well in the 7-800 fps range.
At higher velocities, the skirt sometimes gets blown off the bullet, and sometimes gets left in the bore.
I expect Lyman's recommended loads are for a solid base wadcutter from one of their molds.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I was actually looking for Federal in the hydra-shok because I 've heard so much about them. I was unable to locate just the bullets for reloading,

Just as a matter of record, Federal used to offer their Hydrashok bullets for reloading, but haven't in some time. I did have some (about a 1 1/2 dozen) that I found in the back of the ammo cabinet a little while ago...they were 129 grains. I don't think that they offered the bullet in a heavier weight.

As for the wadcutter: I have been told that the wadcutter/semiwadcutter bullets are superior to the RN style in that they act like a 'punch press' and cut a nice, clean hole with clean edges in tissue (just as they do in paper), as opposed to the RN, which just 'pushes' the tissue apart, and leaves a ragged edge. Important from the standpoint of hemorrhage, in that the platelets & rest of the clotting cascade will react more readily (to form clot and plug up the hole) with the wound made by a RN bullet as opposed to a WC/SWC. We do this in open heart surgey; we use a special punch to make a clean hole to sew the vein grafts on to help keep it open and reduce the chance of clotting post op.

For stopping power, I really like my 357 Colt King Cobra. That is a mighty fine, accurate shooting handgun. But, as a carry handgun attached to my belt, it would pull my pants down with all the weight.

Have you thought about wearing suspenders?

Seriously, there are other options to carry (shoulder hoslter, for example), and depending on your barrel length on you King Cobra (always admired that revolver....never bought one), that may be an option as well.

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

Yes, my .38 wadcutters are cast and quenched and are hard. Swaged wadcutters would lead terribly at high velocity. As for hollow base wadcutters, I used to load them hollow base UP with a mild charge of Unique. An article circa 1976 in a gun magazine called them "cup points" and they sure worked on critters like skunks, chucks and porkys.

Adam

[Larryjk]

Okay Guys, Now is the time for all the folks who worry about the lawyers to leave the room. If you want to use a hollow base wadcutter for self defense, put the hollow base forward and put about 3.5 grains of Bullseye behind it. That recipe is an old one from a NYPD robbery detective. Said very few armed suspects caught in the act survived that one. You will probably be tried for EXCESSIVE self defense, unless you have been missed by the perps first shot. (Load is accurate for about 25 yrds.)

[Mr. 16 gauge]

You will probably be tried for EXCESSIVE self defense, unless you have been missed by the perps first shot.

"Excessive self defence"......I like that one; is that like being "a little bit pregnant"?

[skeet]

Nah..excessive self defence is taking a gun to a knife fight!!...never ever try to take a knife from a guy..it'll get ya killed...and there is no such thing as shooting to wound...you will probably miss

[Jack]

I've loaded the 'backwards wadcutter' loads myself. Back in the 70's, when most handgun bullets didn't expand, they worked better than most other things out of a 38, especially a short barreled one. Today, with bullets that really do expand, there probably is no need for the backwards wadcutter load.

[popplecop]

Hollow base 146 gr. wadcutters ahead of 2.5 grs of Bullseye is a load from the 50s. We tried them out of our Chiefs Specials and were not impressed with the results at all. In my .380 and 9mm carry Hornady Critical Defence, Silver Tips in 38 Super and HydraShocks in the .45 acps. I will always use factory loads in my personal defense handguns.

[skeet]

Makes sense to me..factory loads usually work

[Trapper7]

Cabelas carries the Federal Hydra Shok in 38 Spl + P, 129 grain bullet for $24.99 a box of 20. They have a special reduced price on some of the others calibers, just not the 38.

[Larryjk]

Maybe it was on here, but I have heard it said that if you consider a 38 Special too weak for self defense, try getting shot with one. The 38 Special was designed around a 158 grain SWC and if you buy a new Smith and go shoot it you will find that load is right on. It may not travel as fast as a "light" 99mm bullet but it (the 38 spec.) does get there, and if it hits, stops sthe fight. If it doesn't, shoot again. The 148 grain hollowbase wadcutter reversed and ahead of 3.5 grains of Bullseye is accurate to 25 yaards and opens up about quarter sized. It is effective and I use them in a 3" barreled J-frame Smith.

[popplecop]

One word of caution if you want to load a 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter reversed. The maximum load is 3 grs. of Bullseye according to my latest Hornady Seventh Issue Reloading Manual. I personally would approach the max. load by starting at 2.5 grs and going up a 1/10th of a grain at a time.

[Larryjk]

I am not surprised that a current manual shows 2.5 grs. of Bullseye to be max.
The load I referenced is from 1971, and not from a manual, but a personal reference. It is not a load for continued target shooting, but a load for maximum stopping power in a police setting. There were similar types of loads for the 45 acp that certainly wouldn't be found in a loading manual today.

We need to understaand that there is certainly some inherent risk to being shot by a robbery perpetratorwith a gun and it might be acceptable risk to use a more powerful load in a duty gun at that moment than you would routinely carry on traffic duty.

[popplecop]

Maximum load is listed at 3 grs. not 2.5 grs. I suggested that as a starting point to work up a safe load.