What should be eligible for the death penalty? - Page 3

fabsroman · #31 08-08-2005, 08:02 PM

Val,

Were those Enron pension funds insured, or should they just have been insured? I am not sure which statement you meant.

As a result of Enron, we have the Sarbanes-Oxley Act that provides a lot stricter standards for auditors and companies.

I looked up the death penalty last night in Maryland, and it seems that it is only available for first degree murder, and the only difference between first degree murder and second degree murder is aggravating circumstances such as rape, strangulation, poisoning, and so on. The death penalty is not available for second degree murder or any of the sexual offenses. I was quite surprised.

As far as legal representation of people on death row is concerned, a lot of attorneys do it as pro bono work. We are supposed to do a certain amount of pro bono to give back to the community, or pay into a fund some money so that other attorneys can be hired to provide these services. So, you are going to be stuck with all the appeals for quite a while. I don't know about limiting the appeals process. Like I said before, I used to be all for the death penalty until I found out that a bunch of innocent men on death row were let out in Illinois after DNA testing proved they were innocent. If that appeal process wasn't in place, I am sure a lot of innocent men would have died.

Another thing that scared me had to do with some new scientific process that resulted in a doctor in Florida being found guilty of poisoning his wife. That was death penalty case and he was sentenced to life in prison if I am not mistaken. After several months in prison, and a lot more unsolved cases and current cases going down as poisoning with this specific poison, an FBI analyst figured out that the scientific testing was faulty because the trace elemeny from the poison showed up in all dead people (i.e., upon death it was created). Imagine if all the people convicted of poisoning somebody under this new scientific test had been hurried off to the electric chair or injection chamber.

Imagine that your husband dropped dead and you inherited a large life insurance policy but had a lot of debt. The authorities thought there was foul play on your part by poisoning him, you were hurried through the legal system, this new science proved you guilty, and you were hurried off to the electric chair.

See, I don't just think of what is the best and quickest punishment for the guilty, I think about how passing a law could affect everybody.

Valigator · #32 08-08-2005, 08:53 PM

You know Fabs, one of the first things in law school I would teach lawyers is that there are some truly bad guys out there....and sometimes the evidence of their guilt is glaring....another words they have worn out their welcome on the rest of humanity....and as a society we have deemed their punishment to be death....what I dont get is when we have glaring evidence and we have gone beyond a reasonable doubt in the eyes of society I got some putz lawyer trying to make a name for himself by post poning the laws of the land at the expense of the American citizen.....now overall I get where your coming from..truly I do...but if you have a system that we as taxpayers pay for...even with its faults......and demand the punishment of death for what is considered a heinous crime.....you tell me...why I cant get it....in fact go back to the above post I made about the beast I decribed...and tell me in a way I will understand why he hasnt been executed?
Because I gotta tell ya Fabs....there will come a day..when the American citizen knows they will not recieve justice because of lawyers that have to make a name for themselves...there will come a day when the profession that was suppose to be so noble has gone to crap, and we as citizens will have to take justice in our own hands....and that day Fabs has come....

fabsroman · #33 08-09-2005, 12:25 AM

Val,

That day hasn't come for the very reason that you would be just as guilty as the criminal.

Most lawyers aren't out there to make a name for themselves on these death penalty cases. Most of them are the liberal guys who think these people deserve every chance possible.

My criminal law professor put it best, "We do our jobs and hope that the system works. That is how we sleep at night."

We have gone over this time and time again. The American judicial system is structured so that 10 guilty men will go free before 1 innocent man is convicted.

Just put yourself in the shoes of some poor, and I mean monetarily poor, person that is charged with a crime that he is innocent of? Imagine that you get the public defender who is overworked and grossly under paid.

Your problem Val is that you are looking at this as though all people found guilty are actually guilty. I would love to come down to Florida and lock you in a prison for several years, just so you could experience what an innocent person in jail experiences. How did those 40+ guys on death row feel knowing they were innocent. How did that poor doctor feel being incarcerated for several months while he was innocent.

Yes, I do feel terrible for the victims, but lets not railroad people into the death penalty. The laws are in place for a reason, and not all attorneys are glory seekers.

While I don't do much criminal stuff, I have been involved with a client recently that has been charged with a plethora of stuff over the last year or so.

January 2004 - DWI

September 2004 - 2nd Degree Assualt against his girlfriend

February 2005 - 4 counts of 2nd Degree Assault, 3 against LEO's, and a disorderly conduct charge

March 2005 - driving on a revoked license, along with several other moving violations

May 2005 - 2nd Degree Assault against his girlfriend

The entire mess started with the DWI. He and his girlfriend got into an argument and he locked himself in his truck so that he could get away from her. I didn't represent him in this case, but I reviewed the record to prepare for the other cases and she testified in the DWI case that she grabbed a wrench out of the back of the truck and broke the window to the truck. At that point, he drove off and "accidentally" ran over her leg. He saw it happen in the side view mirror and jumped out of the truck while it was still moving. It ended up going across the street and hitting a tree. He was found guilty of driving under the influence.

The MO on both 2nd Degree Assualt charges made by her is that they happen after the two of them have been drinking. He broke up with her on both occassions and started loading his stuff in the car and she called the police on him for hitting her. She didn't appear at either trial, but I had to plead him on the second one because the LEO's saw the destroyed items and were available as witnesses. There were absolutely no marks on her from either incident.

Before meeting this girl, this guy's record was completely clean except for a disorderly conduct charge back in 1993.

The other night she called me up crying that he hit her again, and she was pissed off at me because she doesn't think I believe he ever hits her. Quite honestly, this thing has me torn up. He admitted the assault to me during the May 2005 incident, but according to him it was minor (i.e., a push in her back when she turned her back on him). Of course, he could be lying.

However, I know she is a coniver/manipulator, because she has been coniving ever since I have known her. She stopped working at her last job, and her friend there is doing her work for her, so she just signs her pay check over to her friend. I have no idea how the heck that works, but she uses the alleged income for credit purposes. My client, who owns a business, drafted a letter of employment for her to "refinance" her mortgage even though I tried to explain to him that he could get into serious trouble if she defaulted on the loan because she wasn't actually working for him. She had tried on several occassions to have my client sign over a vehicle to her because "her alcohol class in Virginia wants to see that she has insurance on a car and she needs to have the car in her own name to get insurance on it." When I suggested that he just put her name on the title along with his, she wasn't too happy about it.

I guess what pisses me off is that if she really wanted to be spiteful, she could testify in one of these matters and get my client thrown in jail because the judge would believe her over my client. She could throw herself down the stairs and get my client locked up for quite a while, because the judge would believe her.

Of course, I could always try to show the MO of the previous circumstances (i.e., the car was loaded up with his stuff on both occassions that she called the police), but it all comes down to credibility. Sometimes, there just isn't overwhelming evidence.

That is probably what the 40+ in Illinois faced.They were just railroaded and there were people like you crying out for there immediate death back then.

Val, I know I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I pulled the trigger on an innocent person, but I am sure when you take matters into your own hands you will gather all the evidence possible before killing somebody based upon anger and what you "think" he might have done. Figuring out somebody's guilt isn't always the easiest thing. If the person is found with the body, is he automatically guilty. Boy, I hope I don't stumble on any dead bodies anytime soon.

I can keep going on, but I have to get back to work so I can glorify my name on an unemployment issue that one of my clients has. LOL

By the way, if somebody killed a family member of mine, you can bet I would want blood, but I doubt I would kill anybody unless I actually saw the person kill my family member.

Andy L · #34 08-09-2005, 09:24 AM

I got a couple of cases I want to run by you folks and see what you think these folks should have gotten as sentences. These happen to be cases on people that I know and our company bonded. But, I also knew them personally as well. Ill give you all the relevant details I can without going on too long.

#1. This guy, about 21 yrs old at the time, was coming home around 3am from a night of drinking and partying with other substances, in a town about 40 miles from where he lived. He was alone in his pickup and fell asleep, passed out, whatever, and ran off the side of the road, which had a wide, paved shoulder, and hit a car sitting there, with its lights on, and killed the girl driving the car. She had pulled over to use her cell phone, so she wouldnt have a wreck, so said her friend on the other end. The driver of the truck paniced and drove off, going home and to bed. He was caught and confessed the next day.

What do you think he got? What did he deserve?

#2. There was a bit of a feud going on between two familys of brothers. After several fist fights and death threats, two of the parties were driving through a really small town together, when two on the other side, ran them off the road, then followed them to a gas station in town and rammed the rear of their vehicle. One of the brothers in the ramming vehicle jumped out and began shooting at the two he just rammed with a hand gun, killing the passanger. The driver got out with a 7mm Mag and shot the original shooter in the head, killing him. the other brother in the aggressive vehicle never got out or picked up a weapon. Basically just set there.

Who should be in trouble? What sentence did whoever deserve? What do you think the sentence was and to whom?

See how this goes.

Andy

M.T. Pockets · #35 08-09-2005, 05:28 PM

I'd have to say the woman in TN that opened fire on the officers to break her convict husband loose would be a good candidate. He would too if he was in on the planning.

fabsroman · #36 08-09-2005, 05:32 PM

Andy,

In case #1, the guy should have gotten life in prison because there was no intent to kill the woman and there definitely was no malice, but drinking and driving is one of my pet peeves. In reality he probably got 10 to 15 years with the eligibility for parole.

Case #2,

The brother in the aggressive vehicle probably got charged as an accessory to murder and might have gotten life in prison. If I were on the jury, I probably would have found him guilty of reckless endangerment. If I were the Judge I would put him on probation for 5 years.

The guy with the 7mm Mag might have gotten charged with murder or manslaughter. Depends on when he shot the guy that started all the shooting. If the other guy was done with all his shooting and didn't have the gun raised anymore, and the 7mm brother shot him out of revenge, he was guilty of murder and could have received the death sentence. Personally, I wouldn't even find him guilty because he did society a favor and I would do the same thing if my brother was gunned down in front of me.

Now, here is another for you guys. A client of mine was coming home for lunch from her employer to see her new born baby. She was stopped at a red light waiting behind a car. The light turned green and she followed the car in front of her through the intersection. She woke up in a hospital room 5 days later after being in a coma for 4 days. The paramedics and doctors gave her less than a 50-50 chance to live. Turns out that a drunk driver was doing 70 in a 40 and blew through the red light. It was his 4th offense and there was an empty bottle and half empty bottle of vodka on the floor of his truck. My client spent a week in the ICU and had $100,000 in medical bills. When I took the case, I thought it was going to be one where I made absolutely no money because the guy had statury limits on the vehicle. Essentially, I planned on dealing with the medical providers to get them to reduce their bills to a point where my client could get some money. At the end of the day, it turned out pretty well because this guy had $300,000 single limit policy and a decent amount of assets. However, I went to the criminal trial and can tell you to this day what this guy got and the Judge's reasoning for it.

I'll post a couple of pictures below of the vehicles.

fabsroman · #37 08-09-2005, 05:34 PM

Here is a picture of the guy's truck.

fabsroman · #38 08-09-2005, 05:41 PM

Here is another case.

A guy I went to high school with owned an old Mercury Cougar. I would say it WAS a 1967 or so. Anyway, during our early twenties, he decided to take that thing well over 100 on a road where we lived. Mind you, it was a 40 mph speed limit and it was 3 lanes each way with a median divider. Anyway, an old lady pulled out in front of him and he T-boned her, sending her to her grave.

He was found guilty of manslaughter and given 5 years probation. He never served a day in jail. Being an avid hunter, I guess it was also punishment that he couldn't own any firearms because he is a convicted felon.

With that said, I had gone 105 on that same road with my Mustang, but that was before I was 20 and I always made sure it was late at night and that there was no traffic. Granted, that is no excuse, but at least I only did that once. Prior to that, I had gotten the car up to 125 in two other places and was surprised to find out how long it takes to stop (i.e., I barely stopped for a red light and stop sign on each occassion). Haven't broken 100 in many years now.

Andy L · #39 08-09-2005, 06:27 PM

The guy that hit the car on the side of the road got 7 yrs with a 15 yr backup. Meaning, he was sentenced to 7 yrs in prison, but when paroled (which he got in 3 and change), if he didnt walk the probation, he was sent for 15. Hes still on probation. Even though hes the brother of a good freind of mine, I thougth it pretty light. So does alot of the other folks around that town.

The 7mm brother got life in prison with eligibility for parole in 20 years. That was a bit different, because of the reputation of the other shooter and witnesses saying he was still firing when shot with the rifle.

I used these two just to see what you would say. I think if anything, the sentences should have been about the opposite. As bad as I hate to say it about my buddies brother, he deserved life, at least, and probably death. There was no excuse for that.

And, I figured self defense with unlawful use of weapon or maybe aggrivated assult for the other that actually got murder charges and life.

I would have to say that in your example, I would have to give your 4th time DWI offender at least life. Since the woman didnt die, I guess death would be out of the question. But, if he gets life, that means that society has deemed him unfit to walk among us and a hazard to others in society. Why keep him alive? Thats my whole point in this thing. So, I guess I would probably have voted death. Even though its not an option in our sterile society.

Andy

fabsroman · #40 08-09-2005, 07:28 PM

Andy,

I am fine with the guy doing 7 years, but appaulled by the 20 yeas for the 7mm guy. If I read your post correctly, the 7mm guy was in the car that was being chased and hit and his brother got shot before he even opened fire. If you are telling me the guy with the handgun was still blasting when he was shot by the 7mm, I have no idea how the 7mm guy got 20 years. Luckily, he didn't get the death penalty. The fact that the 7mm guy got 20 years is my reason for being a little less hasty to dole out the death penalty.

In my case with the 4 time DWI guy, he got 5 years with all but 10 months suspended, and then he received 6 months of the 10 months on work release (i.e., home arrest), so he ended up doing all of 4 months in jail for almost killing my client and changing her life for quite a while.

Valigator · #41 08-10-2005, 08:34 AM

Ahhhh, spoken like a true attorney Fabs.......instead of answering my question you danced with examples of other cases....I'll ask you again, why is a guy still suckin up my air space when he was convicted in 1990.....with a confession and updated DNA evidence? Why cant the victim and the people of his state get Justice?

I am attackin a problem and not a personality here, so I wont apologize OK.

PS heres the latest dance the attorneys are doing for this creep:

Cambria County
Death row inmate says car killed toddler

Attorneys seeking a new trial for a man on death row for the rape and murder of a toddler contend that there was no murder and that her injuries resulted from being run over by a car.

Stephen Rex Edmiston, 47, was convicted in 1990 of abducting 2-year-old Bobbi Jo Matthew from her home in Beccaria, Clearfield County, in October 1988 and driving her to a remote area in northern Cambria County, where he raped, beat and scalped her.

Edmiston's attorneys said recently that color slides from the autopsy indicated that the child's scalp was removed when a car backed over her and that her internal injuries were also from the car, not an assault.

Enough is enough...this stuff makes me sick....

fabsroman · #42 08-10-2005, 10:27 AM

Val,

I thought I answered your question, but I guess you need it to be as short as possible.

In essence, you have not received justice because he must receive justice before we take his life. If there is any possiblity that he is not guilty of murder, it should be listened to.

By the way, how much discovery do you think the Public Defender does? Do you think they do as much as the OJ Simpson attorneys did. Do you think they hire investigators that specialize in this stuff or forensics guys that specialize in this stuff.

At the end of the day, if there is NEW evidence that shows that this guy might not be guilty, like the DNA evidence in Illinois, he should get a new trial.

Sometimes, evidence is overlooked in trials and courts nowadays are not too willing to postpone trials and back up dockets so that a huge amount of discovery can be done.

In the end, it is all about justice and making sure that he gets his before you get yours. He has a lot more to lose than you do in this situation.

Did that answer your question, or should I limit it to a single sentence?

Rocky Raab · #43 08-10-2005, 10:35 AM

Let's not get testy, folks.

I detect a bit of an edge in the last two posts.

We're all friends here.

fabsroman · #44 08-10-2005, 01:38 PM

How does the pledge of allegiance end.

I think it ends with "with Liberty and JUSTICE for ALL".

It doesn't just say Justice for victims or Justice for alleged perpetrators. Justice is for everybody and it isn't a one way street.

What a lot of people do not understand is that once a Court enters a verdict it is really hard to appeal it and get it overturned. I saw a Nightline episode about two guys incarcerated for 15+ years in New York City and the Courts are unwilling to overturn the verdicts for them even though there is a ton of evidence showing that somebody else is responsible for the shooting/murder of the person. The guy will not talk without immunity and the state will not give him immunity.

Come on now, this guy already served a bunch of time for other crimes and just got out of prison. Is it worth it to keep two innocent guys locked up over this. The state should give this guy immunity, let him testify as to what happened that night, and be done with it even if it means the real killer (i.e., this guy) goes free.

Will these two guys get their 15 years back. NO. Will these two guys be compensated by the state. NO.

Where is the Justice in that?

Life isn't fair, but I don't think executing people left and right as fast as the needles and electric chairs can go is going to solve the Justice issue.

Val,

You look at it one sided, execute the guy. Me, I say let the system run its course and let the guy be executed at the end of the day.

The really sad thing is that we will never know how many innocent people have been executed/murdered by the state because they were railroaded through the system.

Trust me, the system doesn't work great all the time for victims and it doesn't work great all the time for accused people either.

We cannot do anything for the innocent, dead child, at this point, but we can take some precaution to make sure that another innocent life is not ended.

Valigator · #45 08-11-2005, 05:52 AM

well we have accomplished one thing.....we have agreed to disagree.....you will have a few examples of justice gone awry in the next few years...with the increased technology of DNA....I would venture a few people will be exonerated for crimes they did not commit....but in the same vain, when it validates the guilty...

Hey but I will lean towards your side and figure this was just a misunderstood guy who had a very valid reason for takin this baby in the middle of the night to a deserted area...maybe he was takin her to Disney World, yea that was it...just got lost along the way...somehow her insides fell out....and the car accidently rolled over her and lost the top of her head...and I am sure it was a misunderstandin that he left her out there....you know those pesky two year olds....stuff like that happens to all of us at sometime right?