June Fir,Fish,Game - Bridgers trashed traditional & PRB

[Adam Helmer]

roundball & rattus,

Your dialog is interesting and is reflected here in PA among the bow hunters' associations.

The "Traditional" Bow Hunters are livid that crossbows are now legal to hunt with in PA, BUT NOT in the six-week archery deer season beginning October 1. Crossbow deer hunters must buy a Muzzleloader (Rifle) Tag and hunt in the October ML and after-Christmas ML deer seasons. Now that is silly, after all a crossbow is a bow.

I am a "Traditional" ML hunter and use flinters (mostly) and am glad we have a traditional after-Christmas deer season SPECIFICALLY for Flintlocks. Our week-long October deer season was made an "Any ML" about 2 or 3 years ago. Before that it was Flintlock Only in October. Now the inlines and scopes and all that are legal for the week in October. I wonder why? The PGC will not permit crossbows in the 6-week archery season beginning October 1, but permit inlines in the October ML season.

So, PGC did not "Offend" the verticle archers, but said "To hell" with the traditional muzzleloaders. So, Rattus, if there were to be fairness in PA, do you think crossbows should be allowed IN the 6-week long archery season?

I think you guys know that MLs, Inlines and modern rifles are legal in the two-week rifle deer after Thanksgiving in PA.

The point roundball makes is apparent in the PA archery deer season. The Traditional Archers got to keep their 6 weeks without any crossbows. If that is ok, they why not let the Traditional MLs folks have their seasons as well? The modern ML hunters can hunt the two-week rifle deer season with no fuss.

Adam

[rattus58]

Adam... first off a cross bow and an inline are in no way apples and apples... nor are they even apples and oranges.

A cross bow is not a bow in the language of the NBEF/NBEP. The definition of a bow by these organizations is that a bow is one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position.

Therefore, there is a legitimate exclusion to the use of a crossbow in a "bowhunting only" season. With muzzleloaders, all guns are loaded from the muzzle. There is little to differentiate the mechanics of an inline to that of the sidelock regardless of the rhetoric.

An inline is loaded from the muzzle. It has to be cocked in order to fire. It has to be aimed in order to hit something. It has a lock, a stock and a barrel. So far, what is there to separate them from a sidelock? Nothing that I can see.

There is nothing about an inline per se that should keep them from a muzzleloader season. Now if you have a flintlock only season, that is one thing. That would be like saying you have a longbow only season. That is quite legitimate. To say that you have an archery season would then include all forms of archery equipment, including the compound bow with its various forms of letoff.

Now I have a question for you Adam... What about this gun...

New for 2006, the Accusporter LTD PRO. All the great features of the Accusporter LTD flintlock, plus the addition of Double Set Triggers, and features a removable breech plug and EC Load System. Our gun combines a 1:28 twist Green Mountain Barrel with an L & R Lock which is hand fitted into a classic wood laminated stock. Added features include: a precision located lock assembly to assure a perfect fit between the lock and the barrel, all metal fiber optic sights and a touch hole alignment that is in the optimum position for reliable, fast ignition. The removable breech plug will make cleaning a breeze with the Accusporter LTD, and easy to remove those “stuck” loads. The new EC Load System makes loading conical and sabot style bullets easy. The relieved barrel bore allows easy insertion of the bullet into the barrel, and provides positive alignment when starting the bullet. A custom made, quality gun which is made in America. Available in right or left hand models and 24 & 28 inch barrel lengths. Five stock colors to choose from: Rosewood, Black Laminate, Brown Laminate, Green Laminate, and Dark Rosewood. Includes hard guncase.

Any problem with this gun?

Aloha... Tom

[skeet]

I have to disagree with ya on this one Rattus. The crossbow is exactly what Adam said. It is a bow. It shoots an arrow(bolt) and for deer it will have to use a broadhead point of some sort. The archery season is for a bow. A crossBOW will not really extend the range you are able to kill by any significant distance..and there are already bows with 90% letoff so when using a release it means you only have to hold an insignificant amount of pull. In fact some of these bows are not allowed if you want to register an animal in some of the record keeping organizations...or at least they weren't a few years ago. The archery season should be opened up for crossbows. In many states they are legal for people who are not able to pull a regular(or compound) bow.

Now as far as a muzzleloader...again.it isn't necessarily about what kind of muzzleloader you use. It is(and should be) about the extra hunting opportunities. When the muzzleloader seasons were established that is exactly all it was about...more hunting. The Pennsylvania season was set up to be for primitive(if I remember correctly) firearms. But still it was about more hunting...and most of the people who hunted with flinters were hunting just for that reason...more days afield. If they had allowed caplocks most would have used them...no matter what you feel is right. As stated before. What is the difference to you all? Just hunt your way and enjoy it! Nobody is "cheating" you...unless you cheat yourself by not enjoying the opportunity. Have fun whether it be with cossbow or inline, compound or flintlock

[BILLY D.]

Popcorn is now being served in the main seating area. BYOB.

I was going to bring up the subject of the Switch Barrel MZLDR but I figured someboby would put knuckle bumps all over my body.

Bill

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
I have to disagree with ya on this one Rattus. The crossbow is exactly what Adam said. It is a bow. It shoots an arrow(bolt) and for deer it will have to use a broadhead point of some sort. The archery season is for a bow. A crossBOW will not really extend the range you are able to kill by any significant distance..and there are already bows with 90% letoff so when using a release it means you only have to hold an insignificant amount of pull. In fact some of these bows are not allowed if you want to register an animal in some of the record keeping organizations...or at least they weren't a few years ago. The archery season should be opened up for crossbows. In many states they are legal for people who are not able to pull a regular(or compound) bow.

Now as far as a muzzleloader...again.it isn't necessarily about what kind of muzzleloader you use. It is(and should be) about the extra hunting opportunities. When the muzzleloader seasons were established that is exactly all it was about...more hunting. The Pennsylvania season was set up to be for primitive(if I remember correctly) firearms. But still it was about more hunting...and most of the people who hunted with flinters were hunting just for that reason...more days afield. If they had allowed caplocks most would have used them...no matter what you feel is right. As stated before. What is the difference to you all? Just hunt your way and enjoy it! Nobody is "cheating" you...unless you cheat yourself by not enjoying the opportunity. Have fun whether it be with cossbow or inline, compound or flintlock

Hi Skeet....

Now no one here asked me what I thought about crossbows and archery together, but the National Bowhunting Education Program and the NBEF both describe the crossbow as not being a bow for the reasons stated earlier. For the Crossbow to be sent to the muzzleloader season is the appropriate place for it according to the NBEF/NBEP.

Now in the argument of crossbow versus bow, it can be shot with one hand, drawn with just the twist of the wrist, and aimed like a rifle. Most feel its more powerful than a bow, shoots faster than a typical bow, and is released with a squeeze of a trigger. There is only one similarity of a crossbow to a regular bow, and that is that the bolt is powered by the power stroke of drawn limbs. This is the reason for the crossbow being relegated to the firearms season in some states. Folks with legitimate disabilities using a crossbow is a different discussion.

Do I CARE if a crossbow is in or out of an archery season is another question again, and one that no one has asked of me.

Aloha.... Tom

[rattus58]

Adam... I missed something you said...

"The point roundball makes is apparent in the PA archery deer season. The Traditional Archers got to keep their 6 weeks without any crossbows. If that is ok, they why not let the Traditional MLs folks have their seasons as well? The modern ML hunters can hunt the two-week rifle deer season with no fuss."

For that matter Adam... why not make it just a single shot rifle season for all guns? At least that way they all have something in common, flintlock, caplock, inline, and centerfire. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than calling an inline a centerfire.... Dontcha think....

[skeet]

Crossbows etc

The groups you are mentioning in your posts are just like the traditional vs inline camps. What is in their best interests? Everybody has their own ideas and story to tell. If a crossbow isn't in the group's best interests..then they'll tell ya it ain't a bow. Just that simple. The archery record keepers don't consider any bow that has 90% (or some such figure) letoff as not acceptable! Not much different than how the traditionalist BP hunters feel about inlines. Personally I like the recurve bows much more than the compound. Have all 3 and can tell ya that it is much faster to shoot any kind of manually drawn and held bow than a crossbow...and honestly in the hands of a good archer, in my opinion, more accurate than a crossbow. Because of a shoulder injury I can no longer pull a bow..but wish I could! Heck I even know a guy who used a spear with an atalatyl(sp) to bag a deer. I don't even know if it was legal but he did it. He could point the finger at all of us and say we are cheating. These are all moot questions anyway. As I said before...just hunt the way you want and leave others alone. When ya start pointing fingers and acting like the handgun vs shotgun vs rifle vs bow vs whatever crowds we all look like we are at odds with each other...when we should really be supporting each other instead. Makes more sense to me anyway

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Crossbows etc
The groups you are mentioning in your posts are just like the traditional vs inline camps. What is in their best interests? Everybody has their own ideas and story to tell. If a crossbow isn't in the group's best interests..then they'll tell ya it ain't a bow.

The Organizations I mentioned, which include the International Bowhunting Education Program governed by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation is hardly a "group" and hardly ones who have any kind of a so called "interest" or agenda.

There is not one organization that I am aware of that considers a crossbow to be a bow, and furthermore, don't know of any professional organization that considers the crossbow to be allowed in an ARCHERY ONLY AREA OR SEASON.

If you want to talk of further groups in comparison, then lets talk NRA and NMLRA. I teach for both (as well as I miaght add, the IBEP) and in the IBEP/NBEF crossbows are verbotten. In the NRA/NMLRA inlines are whether or not they are smokeless even, are all treated the same, and why not, they ALL HAVE THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS and loading procedures.

Aloha...

[skeet]

Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt. Who cares about semantics other than people with an axe to grind. Since I like recurve bows I feel that any compound is taking advantage of the game or whatever? No! I hunted with a caplock with a roundball...do I think using an inline is unfair? No! I really don't care...except for the fact that I think that people who whine and argue that someone using what they don't like is unfair. Unfair to whom..them or the game they hunt? The selfsame arguing and whining is divisive to the sport and the people who hunt. Oh and by the way...both the groups you mentioned are backed and funded in some greater or lesser degree by a group who defineitely has an agenda.. Manufacturers of archery equipment and others. I am sure the groups do some very good work in promoting bowhunting and safety...but they still have some agenda as do the NRA and the NMLRA...two other groups that do an awful lot for sportmen and hunting. In fact I feel that except for the NRA, the 2nd amendment may have been destroyed long ago. Also it seems since the middle ages the crossbow has been looked down on by many as it was a weapon of war that wasn't a yeoman's or gentleman's weapon. Somewhat in the same manner snipers have been looked down upon except in cases of necessity such as WWII and Vietnam

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet... just as an example then, what would be the interest of of the NBEF/IBEP in declaring that a bow is a hand held implement to be drawn by two hands without mechanical aid to keep the bow in the full drawn position (or cocked).

Why also should the crossbow be banned from general firearms seasons? What are the interests of hunters there?

Here in Hawaii, you cannot hunt with a crossbow unless on private land or disabled. Its only because of this that we don't allow the crossbow in the general firearms seasons where we allow you to always "hunt down", in other words, in the muzzleloader season, unless muzzleloader only, you can also hunt with a bow. In the general firearms season, you can hunt with anything you choose, but since we don't have a crossbow season, they are eliminated from use there too unless you are disabled.

However, back to bowhunting and crossbows. A bow has a specific definition. A cross bow does not fit in that definition from any angle, but it does fit in with muzzleloaders in more ways than it fits in with bows, so I don't see any problem there at all. I DO see a problem with trying to call an inline comparable to a centerfire, and with that logic, all single shot weapons including crossbows should be in the same season.

Aloha.. Tom

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt.

You might want to check out exactly what the NBEF really stands for before seeming to assume that they are a manufacturers mouthpiece. In addition, you might want to research the U.S. Sportsman's Alliance, they follow your sentiments.

And by the way, skeet, the original question here from Adam Helmer, who is conspicuously absent from this discussion is why shouldn't inline muzzleloaders be kept out of a muzzleloader season and used a crossbow as an example. I appreciate your support of Adam's contention that a crossbow is exactly like a bow, but the issue is really first, what is a bow or what isn't. Once we have answered that question, and in the issue of bowhunting and crossbows, the NBEF is generally the organization that governs state decisions on this matter along with the IHEA.

Archery Only Seasons generally if not always preclude the crossbow. If allowed for hunting, inclusion in a short range weapons season is appropriate as these permit muzzleloaders, shotguns, bows etc. For Pa to all this in the muzzleloader season is certainly appropriate according to the NBEF. Unless Adam, or anyone else, can come up with an "authoritative" citation from somewhere that equates the crossbow with a bow and arrow the question is accurately and appropriately answered by the actions of Pennsyvania.

But Adams questions conspicuously absent and postulization and apparent agreement with roundball that inlines belong in a centerfire season by trying to equate the relationship of crossbows to bows as being the same as the relationship of sidelocks to inlines deserves discussion, if for no other reason than its novelty, and I'd like to get his read on that RNC Sports flintlock.

Aloha...

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt.

You might want to check out exactly what the NBEF really stands for before seeming to assume that they are a manufacturers mouthpiece. In addition, you might want to research the U.S. Sportsman's Alliance, they follow your sentiments.

And by the way, skeet, the original question here from Adam Helmer, who is conspicuously absent from this discussion is why shouldn't inline muzzleloaders be kept out of a muzzleloader season and used a crossbow as an example. I appreciate your support of Adam's contention that a crossbow is exactly like a bow, but the issue is really first, what is a bow or what isn't. Once we have answered that question, and in the issue of bowhunting and crossbows, the NBEF is generally the organization that governs state decisions on this matter along with the IHEA.

Archery Only Seasons generally if not always preclude the crossbow. If allowed for hunting, inclusion in a short range weapons season is appropriate as these permit muzzleloaders, shotguns, bows etc. For Pa to allow this in the muzzleloader season is certainly appropriate according to the NBEF. Unless Adam, or anyone else, can come up with an "authoritative" citation from somewhere that equates the crossbow with a bow and arrow the question is accurately and appropriately answered by the actions of Pennsyvania.

But Adams questions conspicuously absent and postulization and apparent agreement with roundball that inlines belong in a centerfire season by trying to equate the relationship of crossbows to bows as being the same as the relationship of sidelocks to inlines deserves discussion, if for no other reason than its novelty, and I'd like to get his read on that RNC Sports flintlock.

If the inline belongs in the general season, then by extension, all muzzleloaders, flintlock, caplock, inline and crossbows should be in a single shot weapons seasons.

Aloha...

[skeet]

But he is not the only one to feel that muzzleloader season should only be for traditional arms. It just happens to be a bigger deal in Pa because of the original season being flintlock only. But it is a specious argument at best as it seems as though the average joe just wants to be able to hunt.
I did check the site for the NBEF and sure enough some(all listed ones) of the sponsors and contributors was...manufacturers of archery equipment, archery magazines and such things as camouflage etc. Not going to argue the point...but there is no reason to have an organization unless they have an agenda. So they don't acknowledge the fact that crossbows are used hunting. Personally I feel they should be used in the archery seasons as they have no more range than a conventional bow or compound....and are usually used by people with handicaps that don't allow shooting any conventional type of bow. They really can't compete with even a flintlock on an equal basis...and I really don't feel that they can even really compete with any type of normal hunting bow. They surely are a bit more awkward to carry in the woods. Or they seem so to me. Heck the average shot at a deer in the eastern woods is usually less than 50 yds(all firearms seasons) so why the big argument over inlines and sidelock guns... A dead deer is just as dead either way.
Now as far as the issue with the advertisers of the NBEF...I really don't care one way or the other. But after being in the gun(and bow) business for all those years.. Commercial entities are not either sponsoring or contributing unless their agenda is being addressed by the recipient of their largess. A commercial contributor's agenda is to make money..and they support those organizations to advertise themselves and their wares. Also to promote the sport that they make money from. Its not out of the kindness of their hearts..it is a commercial decision to help make money. No more..no less. There is really no way to argue that point oh and to state that a crossbow should be put into a firearm season even though it is a muzzloader season just doesn't equate. Although the crossbow isn't as old as the long bow..it still throws a stick with a point on it by the use of stored energy exactly identical to the energy stored by any type of conventional bow in use today. Just because the string is released by the pull of a trigger(like releases used so much today?) doesn't make it the equal of a firearm and doesn't make it superior to any other type of bow.

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet

Are you referring to this page? NBEF SPONSORS PAGE Yes we all have an interest in Bowhunting Education, and the sponsors you mention indeed do support NBEF, but I would hardly call this a mouthpiece for manufacturers and Easton makes bolts for crossbows... probably the most notable in fact...

However, you make a comment that I have begun to hear as a common lament... and that is the word compete... you used it when you said " Personally I feel they should be used in the archery seasons as they have no more range than a conventional bow or compound....and are usually used by people with handicaps that don't allow shooting any conventional type of bow. They really can't compete with even a flintlock on an equal basis...and I really don't feel that they can even really compete with any type of normal hunting bow"

Hawaii allows crossbows for the disabled. We're going to move to allow crossbows in the muzzleloading and other firearms seasons next year.

However, the performance of the crossbow is not the issue, nor do I think that it is relevant. What is relevant is what is your hunting season. Is it a general hunting season allowing all forms hunting equipment or is it a defined season.

If it is defined, then you have to fit the definition. Archery season, you fit the definition of archery equipment. Crossbows... They don't fit the definition of bow. Therefore they are allowed in many firearms seasons. Really that is the end of the story.

Muzzleloaders... hmmmm now what is a muzzleloader? Must be loaded from the muzzle. Fine and good. Is there anything else? No. So how does an inline differ from a caplock? It doesn't So if it doesn't differ from a caplock, how can one say it belongs in the general firearms season. They can't.

Now if you are saying you have a flintlock only season, then fine, that meets the definition.. nothing else is allowed. A muzzleloader season on the other hand, is and rightfully should be opened to ALL muzzleloaders.

But back to competition... how are these guns and such... competing? When you go hunting, are you competing with someone? What are the rules? What are the prizes? Is the competition organized.. or on a gentlemans agreement? I thought that hunter chose his equipment to hunt the way he wanted to hunt? If you accept the flintlock, then you are choosing to accept those perceived limitations of the flintlock. Same with the caplock, and the same with the inline. Anyone who has shot and hunted with both types of equipment can easily confirm that an inline has nothing over a caplock. Put the same bullet in an inline as you'd put in a caplock and what do you have? Similar if not identical performance.

Oh.... yes... fast twist... 150 grain loads... etc etc.... Have you checked out the RNC Flintlock....

Oh... Sabots, Scopes, pellets and smokeless ... guess what... equally at home in either sidelock or inline.. and these are not the rifle... the rifle with or without, is still a muzzleloader.

Aloha...

[Dom]

Holy Smokepole. Hey Billy, pass the popcorn!

Just wanted to let you's all know that I've enjoyed reading this thread, some food for thought from all angles. In this regard I lean towards a muzzleloader meaning all from the muzzle and not making a distinction between flint, cap, or in-line. Why? I think you's have defined that answer already. Same with bows, though I don't know what the answer is for classifying a crossbow.

I think the answer to these questions is exactly how do you want to hunt? If you are a traditionalist, then stick to your guns and use a flintlock, even if all types MZ are allowed. If you use a stick bow, then hunt that way, even if compounds are allowed, or crossbows for that matter.

You's are actually lucky, in Germany, all bow hunting is against the law.

In this sense, I think it better to stick together rather than tear apart the different types of hunting. You just can't make special seasons for each and every different type of weapons. Pretty soon we'd have a spearing season, hey Rattus, I think you already got one of those in Hawaii??

In life, you win some and lose some. Enjoy it, because it'll end one day, and sooner than some of us think or want it to. There's bigger fish in the sea to worry about, let's be thankful for what we got, Waidmannsheil, Dom.