Who is in favor of Israel's actions?

[fabsroman]

Val, this is a touchy subject for Jews just as immigration is a touchy subjecy for Hispanics. However, I don't think we have many Hispanic/immigrant hunters on this board. These are also subjects that need to be addressed.

As M.T. said, the relationship with Israel started with Truman because it was an election year. Today, it is still touchy because there are still a good amount of Jewish voters in the US, just as there are now a bunch of Hispanic voters in the US. So, our foreign policy stances are taken based upon what is good for politicians to get into office (i.e., support Israel and do nothing about immigration) instead of what is good for the country. If Italy were causing us this much grief, I wouldn't be sitting here saying we should back them and I have absolutely no issue with what we did with Italy in World War II. My dad's siblings even had to hide from allied bombers during World War II and my dad can slightly remember having to go through air raid drills. However, my dad has gotten into quite a few fights with his Italian friends that say that they like Italy better than the US. Along with telling them to go back to Italy if they do not like it here, some of the arguments actually came to blows. When I was younger, my dad also took the position that if he had to go to war against Italy he would, but he would request that he not be involved in bombing, shelling, or raiding his own town.

Supporting Israel has cost us the Twin Towers, a portion of the Pentagon, several soldiers in the War on Terror, and billions of dollars in aid and to Israel and supplies for the War on Terror. However, if we had never supported Israel from the get go, there would be no terror at all because the arabs wouldn't have a good reason to hate us so much. I have no issue with the Jews in this country, except for those that want the US to unquestionably support Israel without thinking about what is actually good for the US.

[Valigator]

I have been voracious on this subject for days now...reading any and everything I can get my hands on about this topic. I still am not getting the answers I want to be committed to this. Maybe its my ignorance in religion, but I know I couldnt be the only one. Billy said something about 4000 year history...My first impulse was to say, I wouldnt sacrifice my son for anyone's prophecies written 4000 years ago....ya know last night I watched these young kids from the United States who have never stepped foot in Israel boarding planes to enlist in the army there...Mothers crying ...the pain on their faces you could feel thru the TV...I am not a jew, so thats why in some part I dont get it...but needless to say I am reading.....

[Valigator]

how do you like this version?

This specific motivation for the support of Israel is never preached from any fundamentalist pulpit. The faithful hear sermons – many, many sermons – on the pretribulation Rapture. On other occasions, they hear sermons on the Great Tribulation. But they do not hear the two themes put together: "We can avoid death, but only because two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will inevitably die in a future holocaust. America must therefore support the nation of Israel in order to keep the Israelis alive until after the Rapture." Fundamentalist ministers expect their congregations to put two and two together on their own. It would be politically incorrect to add up these figures in public.

The fundamentalists I have known generally say they appreciate Jews. They think Israel is far superior to Arab nations. They believe in a pro-Israel foreign policy as supportive of democracy and America’s interests. They do not dwell upon the prophetic fate of Israel’s Jews except insofar as they want to transfer the threat of the Great Tribulation away from themselves and their families. Nevertheless, this is the bottom line: the prophetic scapegoating of Israel. This scapegoat, not Christians, must be sent into the post-Rapture wilderness.

Overall this website tries to tell us we must insure Israel's survival until 2/3 of them are wiped out????????so Christians can make it to heaven....whats up with that????

[Valigator]

and from another view...

What Israel wants is what they have always wanted: to use American power, American tax dollars, and American lives to advance their own expansionist agenda. Twenty-five thousand Americans are in Lebanon at the present moment, all of them at risk from Israeli bombs – but that didn't factor into Tel Aviv's calculations, any more than Lebanese or Palestinian lives matter one whit to them. The Israelis put Israel first – and so does Washington. If all 25,000 American tourists and others have to perish in the flames of Israeli air strikes, then so be it. No sacrifice is too great – just as long as our Israel-centric foreign policy remains firmly in place.

[Valigator]

How was Hizbullah established?


Imam Moussa Sadr

Hizbullah was established in 1982 in the predominantly Shiite south of Lebanon. It has its roots in the mid-1970s when Iranian cleric Imam Moussa Sadr, who moved to the south of Lebanon in 1960, established the Movement of the Deprived. The movement called for the rights and the protection of the impoverished in the south of Lebanon, with Amal as a military wing that fought in the civil war.

Imam Moussa Sadr disappeared during a visit to Libya in 1978. He continues to be mentioned in the speeches of Hizbullah Secretary General Sayyid Hassan Nasrullah, with references to the Movement of the Deprived, which remains alive in the ideology of Hizbullah.

With the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Hizbullah emerged with the direct aim of resisting the military occupation and bettering the conditions of Lebanon's Shiite community of the South.

Hizbullah emerged in 1982 with the direct aim of resisting the Israeli occupation.

Throughout the 1980s, as the civil war continued, the power of Hizbullah increased dramatically. It eventually supplanted Amal in the environs of Beirut. Hizbullah's resistance to the Israeli invasion continued to mount. Its guerilla war against the Israeli army developed further and created a draining effect that paved the way for the Israeli withdrawal in July 2000, leaving Shebaa Farms, a disputed part of Lebanese territory, under continued occupation.

[Valigator]

What is Hizbullah's problem with Israel?

Hizbullah was established with the purpose of liberating Lebanon from Israeli occupation. Apart from its belief that Israel is an illegitimate state that was established on an occupied land, Hizbullah has two pressing issues after the Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon in 2000: the dispute over Shebaa Farms and the Arab prisoners in Israel.

Click for map of Shebaa Farms.

According to the Lebanese government, Shebaa Farms is part of Lebanon; however, Israelis argue that it is part of the occupied Syrian territory. Shebaa Farms has a strategic importance because it overlooks the occupied Golan Heights. Syria supports the Lebanese position with regard to the disputed area.

Hizbullah has also been calling for the release of Arab prisoners in Israel. Approximately 10,000 Palestinian and Arab prisoners, including 2,000 Lebanese, are held in Israeli prisons. In a German-brokered swap that took place in 2004, 430 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners were released in exchange for the bodies of three Israeli soldiers and an Israeli businessman. However, the fact that a large number of Arab prisoners are still held in Israel urged Hizbullah Secretary General Hassan Nasrullah to warn that they would capture more Israeli soldiers with the purpose of swapping.

[Valigator]

The case for Israel
The truth of the matter is that many in the Arab world want to see all Jews die. Guess what? After the Jews go, Americans are next.

[gspsonny03]

Geez Val when you get to going, you really go. Good job.

[Valigator]

Yea but it has a dark side:

A London-based Palestinian organization is trying to file a lawsuit against the former head of IDF Southern Command, Gen. (res.) Doron Almog, on charges of war crimes. The General was on his way to Britain on an El Al flight, but he did not leave the aircraft and returned on it to Israel after much effort to prevent him from officially entering Britain and facing arrest.

Both Sharon Sadeh and Daniel Sobelman add that in 2002 a British Islamic organization, the British Islamic Union, threatened to take legal action against Shaul Mofaz, then Chief of Staff, for his responsibility in war crimes against the Palestinian people. Mofaz was visiting Britain at the time.
Response from website in Israel::

Reader responses to the article

It looks like they need a big terrorist attack to help them understand who these Arabs are!—Anonymous.

The British ambassador must be kicked out of Israel, along with all the Arabs—Me.

We shouldn’t fly to the UK, visit it, or buy British products. Those English bastards think that they’re the kings of the world—An Israeli.

It’s true that he’s a criminal, but so what? That won’t end the occupation, but will just make it more dangerous—El.

Let’s cut all our ties with England immediately and boycott them. Do not travel there or buy their products—Ilan.

I don’t know how they can give legitimacy to the Arabs—Yossi.

We should try them for the war crimes they committed against the Irish—Mel.

The English are blind and stupid hypocrites—Edie Shor, Ariel.

All of my respect to those who filed the case! May every Israeli war criminal be tried in our time, Amen—Yossi.

Britain is in Iraq. Why don’t they try their own soldiers?—Haggai.

[Valigator]

Reader responses to the article

What are the Americans complaining about? We want to see them get attacked and then say nothing—Shut up.

The entire land of Israel is for the people of Israel alone. There are 22 Arab states—Cato the elder.

We are starting to get sick of those arrogant Americans—Let them look at themselves first.

Did the US kill 70 people in Iraq yesterday? Are they allowed to do that? How hateful!—Warrior.

Let them protest as much as they want. No Israelis will die because of Palestinians, may God erase their name—May God erase the memory of the Palestinians.

The leader of the big gang, the US, is criticizing the leader of the small gang, Israel—The US and Israel are terrorists.

The US should shut up—Mor.

We also criticize the US for having killed 300,000 people. How audacious of the US to criticize our checkpoints when it has killed 300,000 Iraqis in two years to steal their wealth using arms—Iraqis, for theft.

Apart from money, they have nothing to give us, and definitely no wisdom—Sick of Americans.

If only the American hypocrites would mind their own business. The audacity!—Angry.

The hell with the Americans! Enough with them. Who do they think are to dictate our way of survival? I am sick and tired of them—An Israeli abroad.

USA is like dogs! Take care of your problem first. Don’t tell Israel what to do! You better take care of your problems with blacks and neonazim! Don’t put your big greedy nose in Israel pocket! You had WTC and have Iraq and will have much more so bug off! Its not your #### business! [sic]—God.

[8X56MS]

I am for killing all the radical muslims possible. Sooner or later, we are going to have to start on that project here. When push comes to shove, the peace loving muslims living here in America and Canada will be following the radical muslim clerics instructions.

[fabsroman]

We should give them what they wish, and cut off all aid to them in every respect. I cannot believe they write crap like that. Everybody loves to hate the USA until they need us.

[BILLY D.]

val and fabs

i thought you guys were gangbanging there for awhile. as long as i posted info you rebutted it and riddled it full of holes. but night before last my left eye started hurting and watering, so yesterday morning after waking up and my eye was glued shut i thought i better call the doctor. what a goat rope that turned into. as soon as i'm over the eye infection i have to have surgery on the eyelid because the muscle that controls the eyelid is weak, so they are going to tighten it up. i hope this doesn't turn out like 2003.

i had back surgery, all my upper teeth pulled and a vasectomy all in one summer. everybody i met that year had a knife in their hand. i kept the medical profession solvent that year.

i was wondering if you guys are church goers? i don't know what type crucifix you are familiar with. but the catholic one has a plaque above christs head that has four letters on it "INRI". this plaque was the last stab in the back to humiliate jesus christ by pontius pilate.

the inri in latin means "iesvs nazarenus rex ivdaeorvm". translated to english meaning "jesus of nazareth, king of the jews." catch that jew part fabs. i checked on who was the real estate agent for that part of the world at that time and it turned out to be this dude from rome named pontius pilate. at this time all jews were israelites and lived in israel , however all israelites were not jews. they were pagan. jesus christ spent his entire life under the rule of the roman empire. the first half under the emperor caesar agustus and the second under tiberius.

israel in those days was about twice the size it is today. it ran from the suez region all the way to damascus. the country to the west was what became later syria and baylon. to the north "LEBANON".

hey fabs if you want to have some real fun check out the greek jews who were actually dislocated to the black sea area of russia and ask your dad why they had a ukranian university in rome. that is really a great story.

well i got to go change eye patches. i thought it was difficult to type with one hand, then i tired typing with just one eye.

holy crap. i just tried something. i took off my glasses and i can see the screen alot and i mean a lot better without them.

excuse any spelling mistakes, the devil made me do it.

night all.

[Valigator]

Sorry about your eye Billy, and I have to tell ya I been in a turmoil everyday because I feel like I have hurt your feelings...I certainly didnt mean too, but mean too and do, are always two different things for me.....I cant speak for Fabs, but no, I am not a big church goer and have little overall knowledge of the Bible or any other book of faith for that matter. So maybe thats why I feel the way I do because of the limited knowledge or the limited faith, take your pick. I was born and raised in South Florida with a very large Jewish population. Now how can I word this???? ok let me give you just the recent example...there is a residential neighborhood in a city called Hollywood, Fl. probably a thousand single family homes in this one development. Two rabbi's went in about 3 years ago and bought two homes side by side. They opened a Chabad. The neighbors went ballistic because of all the traffic in this residential neighborhood. The neighbors complained and filed suit. You know what the Rabbi's reasoning was? We as Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years and this suit is brought by Anti-Semites. "no" the suit was brought by people who pay darn good taxes for what was zoned a residential neighborhood and all the cars were dangerous and blocking people's driveways. This is an ongoing response in South Florida for every situation...so for me anyway, I am kinda burnt out on these comebacks...I dont care if your a Jew, a Christian, black, white or purple...at some point people are gonna have to stop slaughtering each other because of the God they pray too. And more important quit making world policies under that same guise.

[fabsroman]

Billy, like Val, I am sorry to hear about your eye and I don't mean to piss you off or hurt your feelings, but I am the kind of person to write/speak my mind. I don't consider myself racist or prejudiced. I have black friends, asian friends, Jewish friends, Christian friends, Arab friends, etc. Of course, I do not hang out with a lot of those friends on an on going basis because of my work and my hobbies. Those two things keep me pretty busy. Heck, I don't hang out with a lot of people at all unless they are clients.

I did know about Christ being the king of the jews. If I am not mistaken, Pilot asked him about it and he never denied it. If I am not mistaken, the Jews were the ones asking Pilot to punish/crucify Christ because he claimed to be the king of the jews. So, I don't put all the blame in Pilot's hands. Am I correct that the Jews were the ones that asked Pilot to kill Christ?

Anyway, that is enough of religious history. I am at the point where I don't think previous actions/atrocities against any race/religion justify anything that we are going now. So what, the blacks were enslaved over 100 years ago. Does that mean they should get preferntial treatment over me? My parents weren't even here then and they had nothing to do with it. Is it fair that a friend of mine with the same GPA and LSAT score got into Cornell and I could not? Is it fair that this same guy's parents were actually foreigners that came to the US, his dad was a CPA while my dad was a construction worker, and this kid was allowed the advantage of affirmative action.

For the same reason, I could care less about previous things that happened to the Jews to justify what they are doing today. Yeah, they had a tough time in World War II, but so did others. They had a tough time throughout history at certain points, but so have others. I am sure that the Arabs lost plenty of people during the Crusades. As I posted above, there were many other people killed in World War II other than just Jews. I think one of the reasons that Hitler kept Jews in camps instead of killing them right out is because he was using them to create certain things for him. Did you know that Hitler had a bunch of Jews working on creating counterfeit money from all the Allies, which the Jews did for him, and if the war had continued on for a while he would have been able to use that counterfeit money to obtain things and cause huge inflation in the Allied countries. I believe the Jews also helped him with other things related to the war, but the specifics escape my memory right now. Granted, the Jews did this not because they wanted to, but because their life depended on it. So, by helping the Nazi's with this stuff, how many American lives were lost. Luckily, the war turned out the way it did, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

At the end of the day, I just do not want to hear that the Jews can do whatever they want just because of the previous atrocities that they have endured. Every race/religion has endured something or another over the years, so if we all employed that thinking we could all do whatever we wanted.

Okay, I am going to get back to the Tour de France.