Who is in favor of Israel's actions?

[Valigator]

Fabs this is where Billy and I asked about your age, and you got a little defensive about it......I can tell you from what I have seen in this world, that almost nothing (IS )as it (Seems).....and the older I am getting, the more I can bank on that ideal than just about anything else......I have to ask myself everyday where in the world has common sense gone? The faith I had yesterday is exploding in little bits and peices every day...I have come to the conclusion that as bad as it is, its still the best there is, but isnt that the damnest thing, You know that old saying Ye who has the gold, makes the rules, its more apparent everyday...and ye who has the gold didn't make it in the most noble arenas...I am scared now, and I am scared of nothing....the world has gone mad to me...

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
That begs the question:

"If the majority of Lebanese do not want Hezbollah around, why can they not get rid of them?"

Why is Hezbollah still around if they are not the majority and they are unwanted?

This really pisses me off.

fabs

you are losing your short term memory son. i just explained it to you in the last post. shoot shovel and shut up.

they don't dare make waves or hezbollah will take them out. when they get enough gumption to take on the enemy and run them out of the country hezbollah will go somewhere else. but the lebonese will probably have to liquidate all or most of them to achieve running them out. do the lebonese have the resolve to do this? we shall see.

there are already rumors flying about that the lebonese government army is in bed with hezbollah. hezbollah are thugs that will stop at nothing to achieve their goal. they intimidate. and they are ruthless. think kgb here. hezbollah would make the kgb look like choir boys under some circumstances.

[fabsroman]

Val,

I kind of remember you guys asking about my age, but I do not remember getting offensive or defensive about it. However, I'll take your word on it.

Billy,

I am going to take a break from the Israel/Lebanon issue and concentrate on getting a new road bike for the best possible price. This thing has given me as much of a headache as deciding on which gun safe, AR-10, and AR-15 to purchase. That is me being picky. I now know about every type of bike frame material and almost every frame builder in the world.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Val,

I kind of remember you guys asking about my age, but I do not remember getting offensive or defensive about it. However, I'll take your word on it.

Billy,

I am going to take a break from the Israel/Lebanon issue and concentrate on getting a new road bike for the best possible price. This thing has given me as much of a headache as deciding on which gun safe, AR-10, and AR-15 to purchase. That is me being picky. I now know about every type of bike frame material and almost every frame builder in the world.

fabs

i'm kinda burned out too.

i don't remember anything about the age issue.

but i did have a brain wave. did you ever get your 10-22 up and running? i don't recall any posts about it except you were experiencing problems.

had mine out awhile back and shot a bucket load of gophers. also shot my 22-250ai #'s 1 and 2, and my hornet and 243ai. had a blast. then i got home and had to clean them all. ugh. not too rough, iv'e got three benches in my basement to work off of. boy i love that wipe-out. it's almost better than sex.

[fabsroman]

Still haven't gotten the chance to shoot the 10/22. Might try to do it this weekend, but the in-laws are going to be here until Sunday morning, so that probably will not happen. I've been looking at the Volquartsen Snake 10/22 variants (e.g., .17 HMR, .22 Mag, and .17 Mach2). If I can ever get my AR-10 and AR-15, those will be next on the list.

To make time matters worse, I have been spending about 2 hours a day riding my bike to get back into somewhat decent shape (i.e., get rid of the extra fat on me). The scale at the doctor's office still read 150 lbs. when I went last month, but it isn't the same 150 lbs I am used to. Hence, I am spending money on a new bike instead of a new wardrobe. I had destroyed (i.e., they were actually falling apart in places) all my jeans, so I had to buy some new ones a couple of weeks ago. My waist size has gone from 30 to 31, and I ain't letting it get any bigger.

I'll agree with you about the Wipe-Out. I really hate cleaning my guns, bikes, and cars, but I do it because I hate seeing them look like crap and/or not having them work properly. However, I have everything set up to make it as easy as possible to clean all of them.

[Valigator]

tidbits of maybe unknown stuff....

The first Israeli strike in Gaza hit an electricity plant causing about one million people to be in total darkness. It has been reported that the plant was insured by US Government foreign risk insurance and will now cost the US government about $25 million to repair. Bridges and roads in the south of Gaza were also hit in order to prevent the possible movement of kidnappers and Corporal Shilat out of Gaza- at least that was the reason given by the army. The US has appealed to Israel not to damage infrastructure in Gaza, but Jerusalem doesn't seem to be listening.

[Valigator]

As early as 1919 there were signs of the fighting between Muslim Arabs and Jews that was bound to ensue if the madcap scheme to plunk the Jews into the middle of people hostile to them was carried out. The leaders of the most strident opposition group, the Jaffa Muslim Organization, issued this statement: "We will push the Zionists into the sea or they will push us into the desert." [Quoted in Righteous Victims by Benny Morris (Knopf, 1999)]. With blind determination to avoid the predictable, on July 24, 1922, the League of Nations issued a Palestine Mandate approving the Jewish homeland promised in the Balfour Declaration, modifying the Declaration with clauses recognizing the rights of non-Jews in the region identified as Palestine.


Once persecuted European Jews and pogrom victims in Russia began their exodus to the area of Palestine where Israel was taking shape, Arabs began rioting and fighting what they construed as unacceptable incursions into their land. The violence was so alarming to the British government which controlled the region that its political leaders issued its 1939 "White Paper" drastically limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The end result was that millions of European Jews were trapped in Nazi-occupied Europe.


Why the Jews Were Trapped


The reason why the Jews were trapped in countries occupied by the Nazis was that they were refused admission elsewhere. Acting on orders from President Franklin D. Roosevelt, ironically depicted as "friend of the Jews," the U.S. Government turned away thousands of Jews on ships which had carried them to American shores. Nor would the governments of other nations accept them. They were forced either to return to the countries where they were to be imprisoned and slaughtered or to sail on to Israel. Jewish leaders kept begging the government of the U.S. to allow immigration. Had their pleadings been heeded, a far greater number of Jews than those who eventually settled in Israel would have become citizens of the U.S., and the picture in the Near East might be different than it is now.


Creation of an Israeli State


On November 29, 1947, ignoring the certainty of the forthcoming violence that was bound to occur, the United Nations voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. As was to be expected, leaders of Arab countries refused to cooperate. What was then the Arab League of Nations, consisting of 22 countries, in effect declared "war on the Jews," determined to "drive them into the sea." A small, vastly outnumbered army of Jews, displaying the first signs of their brilliant military skills and innovative technology, soundly thrashed the troops from 22 Arab nations that encompassed a combined population of several hundred million.


On May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was formally established. While the heads of Arab countries refused to recognize Israel's existence, neither were they of the mind to try any more wars against Jews. The fanatical leaders of Muslim organizations and Islamist sects, however, were of a different mindset. "Death to the Jews" became their motto, and it was clear immediately that they would never accept co-existence with Jews in the region that ceased to be Palestine because it was carved by the British who had controlled it into separate states.


The Creation of Islamic Fanatics


While the madness of plunking Jews into the middle of hostile Arabs was taking its inevitable course, oppression of people in oil sheikdoms, and U.S. recognition of and cooperation with the brutal regimes of the Near East, were causing more and more people in that part of the world to turn to religion for succor and, indeed, what seemed to them to be their only hope to escape wretched poverty. U.S. political leaders, and Americans in general concerned mostly with how cheap the gasoline for their cars would be, blindly refused to recognize the buildup of a new force in the world based on quasi-religious fanaticism.


The end result of decades of horrendous mistakes is now exploding in the Near East and other parts of the world where millions of human beings believe that Islam in one form or another should rule the world, that anyone who does not believe in whatever Islamic clerics preach is an "infidel", and that Americans and Jews wherever they may be are the enemy and deserve to be conquered if not destroyed.


Just as the non-German world failed to heed the threat of Hitler and the Nazis to wipe out the Jews and to create a Nazi-run empire, so has the non-Arab Muslim world failed to take seriously the public announcements of leaders and followers of Islamic quasi-religious organizations that they intend to destroy Jews and Americans and to create an Islamic theocracy across the globe. Instead of crushing the genocidal maniacs before they can acquire the technology and weaponry to achieve their goal - eventually through biological and nuclear weapons if they are allowed to advance that far - the rest of the world has allowed them to grow, unchecked, into a force of armed hatred.


Long before the attack on the World Trade Center, plans of Islamic fanatics to attack areas of the U.S. were known. It has been known for years that Hezbollah, this Islamic militia that wiped out a U.S. Marine contingent and that has wreaked other kinds of havoc, was acquiring the means to rain missiles on Israel. Nothing was done to stop them.


Thus, the Monster created by a series of madcap mistakes has been allowed to grow and gain strength. It should be evident to anyone who has any sense at all that this Monster will allow peace to be arranged neither between the occupants of Israel and the occupants of other Near East countries nor between the Israelis and the people living in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Any time it appears that some kind of peace negotiations are advancing, the Monster will engender an incident to disrupt it, whether by genocidal bombings preposterously called "suicide bombings" or by kidnappings or by whatever kind of method may be necessary.


This is the lesson of the war now in progress. Those who have eyes but remain blind, because they refuse to see, now blame "the Jews" for the violence that has erupted in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon. But the Jews did not create the Monster. We Americans and our British allies created it. Now it is too late to feel sorry for the oppressed people of the Near East who have become willing followers of the Monster. Now it is too late to try to reason with the Monster, to make peace with it. The Monster is attempting to develop biological and nuclear weapons that it will use for genocidal attacks on whole populations just as readily as its alleged "martyrs" will turn themselves into bombs to kill and maim. Consequently, as terrible as the prospect may seem, unless there is some sort of miraculous turn of events, destruction of the Monster appears to be the only way to secure peace in the Near East. And if the present relatively limited war there is not stopped, it could lead to a conflagration that would make World War II appear to have been a minor military excursion by comparison.

[fabsroman]

Val,

What is the source of that article?

[Valigator]

http://www.opednews.com/articles/ope...es_at_the_.htm

[fabsroman]

Val, I looked at the link and here is a comment from one of the readers:


The United States of Israel


Israel is very concerned about Hezbollah getting rockets from Iran but nobody asks where a country the size of New Jersey gets their tanks, planes, artillery, and over 700 atomic bombs from. The answer is that they buy them from the United States with the billions of dollars they get from the United States. Like Haliburton who gets billion dollar no-bid contracts from the United States, they can afford to spend the money because it comes from the United States taxpayer anyway. The AARP or American Association of Retired People have a big lobby in Washington, but AIPAC, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee lobby is bigger. Where does the money come from to spend buying Congressmen? The answer is that the congressmen have just passed an appropriation bill giving Israel 3 billion dollars. They have received 140 billion over the past fifty years.

Over 89% of American Jews vote Democratic. The vast majority of American Jews opposed the Iraq war, (more were against it than in the general population) and American Jews have been enormously important in securing civil liberties for all Americans. But the ruling party in Israel is the Likud and they use their positions to support Likud policies in the American government. All this can happen because there is a vacuum in U.S. political discourse., A handful of special interests in the United States virtually dictate congressional policy on some issues. With regard to the Arab Israeli conflict, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee and a few allies have succeeded in imposing complete censorship on both houses of Congress. No Senator or Representative dares make a speech on the floor of his or her institution critical of Israeli policy."

The blanket of censorship covers the American media also. Even some of the most progressive Jews are afraid to speak their true thoughts on the Israeli expansionist policies in the Middle East. They are even afraid of their own friends and family as the Likud policies dominate every synagogue. After the total destruction of Iraq carried out by the neo-cons by lying to the American people about "weapons of mass destruction" They are now destroying Lebanon, and would have the United States make war with Iran.

Why? because Iran wants to build an atomic reactor. Who wouldn't want an atom bomb when a sworn enemy has hundreds of them? Israel is a warlike nationalistic state run by Zionists. No other country has attacked the United States since Pearl Harbor except when Israel attacked the USS Liberty in international waters. No congressional investigation of this vicious assault has been held. It has been kept out of the press and the media but the veterans of the USS Liberty are on the web. Google over to their site and check it out.

The greatest and most powerful country in the world is hostage to the Zionists. The end of the Cold War left the arms industry hanging but Israel is giving them an excuse to keep making more nuclear submarines. Israel is providing them with their life's blood . . . WAR.

[fabsroman]

Here is another comment:

Oh, history!

I am wondering what Jewish pogroms did the author find in the Communist Russia of 1920s and 30s. The Communist govt was fiercely internationalist and antisemitism as well as Zionism were prohibited. Now, the idea that European Jews somehow were trapped because they were not allowed to go to Palestine is bizarre to say the least. European Jews were either predominanlty secular or under the Communist ruling and as such never even considered Palestine. It is reflected in numerous books of those times.By the way, the idea that 'people have to emigrate somewhere from the place they were born' is an insult to the human rights.
The tragedy of the European Jews is the tragedy of betrayal when citizens, other ones betrayed their own brothers due to cowardice and malice. In fact, those who died from Germans are first just people and only after that Jews. That's how they identified themselves and that is how we all identify ourselves. Honestly, maybe we should stop using all that ethnic stuff and instead look into politics, driving forces and money? That pertains also to the description by the author of the Zionist ideology. Zionism is politics. It has nothing to do with God. It has also nothing to do with Jews, paradoxically as it seems. It has everything to do with money, power, malice and greed.
Why won't we see that?

[Valigator]

You really got to pick and choose from that site, its one sided and very slanted....I only picked what appeared to be historical...alot of it is crap.....

[gspsonny03]

Val did you know that Israel becoming a state was prophesied in the Bible over two thousand years ago and was accurate to the very day. And also Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38 and 39 talk about whats happening over there right now and what will happen in the near future with the Arab states and a country from the North, which the prophets claim will be Russia.

I also don't doubt that there is a few people involved with the Zion movement who are in it for the money, but how anyone can say that it has nothing to do with God totally baffles me. It has everything to do with God. Zion is a hill in Jerusalem on which the Royal Palce of David and the Temple were built and until that Temple is rebuilt there can be no second coming of Christ. The people of Israel know this and that's what most of this war is about.

I think that some of the people who write some of that stuff really need to look more into their Bible for their answers.

[Valigator]

Yea its a heck of a thing, Uh? we gotta blow each other up to become whole again...

[Steverino]

"Zion is a hill in Jerusalem on which the Royal Palce of David and the Temple were built and until that Temple is rebuilt there can be no second coming of Christ."

The Jews of Christ's day, as well as today were looking for an earthly kingdom and not one of heaven. Christ was himself crucified for talking against the temple in which he stated that it would be destroyed (which, of course it was in 70ad) The temple was "rebuilt" in Himself. The seperation or tearing of the temple curtain at Christ's death in the Holy of Holies within the temple, signified God's immediate access to us through His Son.

Also, interesting to note-Pontious Pilate's displaying of "The King of the Jews" placcard over Christ's crucifixtion was a slap in the face-a dig, if you will, to the Pharisee leadership whom, of course, did not wish to buy into Christ's messiahness so as to threaten their powerbase and very existence. Pilate himself converted to Christianity following his tenure as the Roamn perfect or governor in the Roman service.

I will step down from the pulpit now to comment on some other issues read herein:

As I continue to read about how there should be no action against Hezbollah because of the costs to innocent civillian life-mainly in Lebanon, I am frankly dismayed at the lack of backbone displayed. Granted, no one wishes to see innocent loss of life but sometimes-this is a necessary sacrifice to provide securities at a later point and less bloodshed. Big countries have to make big decisions that ultimately benefit the whole of a nation.

I too have lost loved ones in this war on terror but it is simply foolish to maintain a mindset that if the US were to completely drag up from the Middle East and become isolationists with no military presence or democratic allies in the region, we as a nation would be better off. Quite the contrary! Western civilization as a whole is hated throughout the Middle East because of it's dominance in every aspect of culture, business, and lifesyles (some of which-I personally understand and agree with though not on a fundamentalist extreme level) permeate the globe. Leaving radical extremists to their own devices, undeterred will bring about untold bloodshed the likes the US has never seen mingled with consequences that the world would not want and that the US would be expected to eventually bail everyone out with eventually anyhow.

If we cut aid to Israel, then what? Hezbollah through Syria and Iran demand that Saudi Arabia not export the 20% of oil that is earmarked for the US markets because we are the 'Great Satan.' Where does it end? You cannot, nor should we seek to negotiate with these types of extremist zealots. I am amazed when I see and hear people talk about how we should just walk away from people that are more than willing to strap bombs to themselves, spouses, and even children to kill us. Are you nuts??? Do you really believe yourself that this would be the better alternative.

I thank the Good Lord that WWII happened over 50 years ago lest we as a nation of spineless citizens determine that through a Gallop pole conducted by the NY Times that we should not proceed with Operation Overlord as the D-Day invasion would cost far too many lives.

Yes, war sucks but history has shown that pacifism causes far more in the form of human tragedy and suffering. Israel does not conform to the U.N. or international community when it comes to eradicating terrorists. I have no problem with that. Lest we forget that this is the same group responsible for the Maine barrack bombings in Beirut in 1982. I personally hope that Syria and Iran are next.