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View Poll Results: Do you agree with Israel's current actions in Beirut?
I totally agree with Israel's actions. 41 87.23%
I am indifferent and could care less or do not know enough about it. 1 2.13%
I DO NOT agree with Israel's actions. 5 10.64%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 07-14-2006, 04:19 PM
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fabsroman fabsroman is offline
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Who is in favor of Israel's actions?

Thought I would post this pole for those of you that might have an opinion contrary to the majority of the board but do not want to voice it in a thread. With this pole, you can remain anonymous and not have to worry about having to defend your position. I am just curious to see if I am the only one on this entire board that does not agree with all of Israel's actions regarding the missing soldiers.
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Old 07-14-2006, 04:57 PM
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Not enough options for me, Fabs.

I'm not fully up to speed on this particular outbreak of fighting - mostly because I don't read or watch mainstream media.

But whacking terrorists for any reason whatever seems like a good thing to me.
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Old 07-14-2006, 06:07 PM
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It's probably as spontaneous as a space shuttle launch.

Iran is apparently providing armament. We could do that, too.

Hezbollah has about as much chance at defeating Israel as the Des Moines chapter of Hell's Angels has against the US Marines. Isreal does not have to win this war. It can strike, and then depart, if it chooses. Hezbollah has to win in order to win.
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Old 07-14-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rocky Raab
Not enough options for me, Fabs.

I'm not fully up to speed on this particular outbreak of fighting - mostly because I don't read or watch mainstream media.

But whacking terrorists for any reason whatever seems like a good thing to me.
rocky

the mossad has traced hezbollah terrorist cells operating and dictating policy to the palistinians from lebanon and syria. at least thats what i've been able to dig up. the israelis feel that if your country is going to allow such actions you are our enemy. from what i am told all the lebonese do not support the hezbollah. in fact from info i received is, 90% don't.

the iranian president's statement that israel should be blown off the map may cost him in the near future. since he made that statement things have been going to hell in a handbasket intelligence wise anyway. that statement was what hezbollah needed to hear as far as my sources think. so hezbollah has really stepped up their terrorist activities. israel has checked this closely.

as far as israel is concerned they struck when they to prevent things from getting any worse. the nip this in the bud therory.

this whole situation could get worse before it gets better.
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Old 07-14-2006, 06:27 PM
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From what I understand, Hezbollah, which enjoys substantial backing from Syria and Iran, is considered a terrorist organization by the United States and Israel, and that group holds 23 of the 128 seats in Lebanon's parliament. This is retaliation for the murders and kidnappings of the Israeli soilders. Just like the US in Iraq, there are casualties of war and sometimes the innocent have to die. Israel and Lebanon have been having this ongoing thing since like the 70s. What is Israel supposed to do? Just lie down and take it?
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Old 07-14-2006, 06:55 PM
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Rocky,

I haven't heard of many terrorists getting whacked by the Israelis, but I have heard that 76 civilians have been killed. If we had that kind of kill ratio in Iraq, heads would be roling and the world would really be pissed at us. I wonder is Israel is going to help Lebanon rebuild after they get all these terrorists. Kind of like the US helped Iraq rebuild and get things somewhat back to order, or is Israel going to pound Lebanon back to the stone age and leave them there, creating more ill will between the two countries.

I think the whole situation is getting worse every day. Not only do we have fighting in the Middle East that was unpredicted, but we have rising oil prices. Oil went over $78 a barrel today. The stock market took a beating too, so the rick are worried about this war. Lord knows what will happen over the weekend and how the stock markets will react. China and Japan are experiencing some of the same economic issues that we have here. They have economies that are threatened with severe inflation. Japan's government just raised the interest rate from a 0.00% rate for the first time in a couple of years because it fears inflation. China's economy is on fire and they are fearing inflation. What will a huge increase in the price of oil do to the world economy, besides having people on here cheering "Go Israel" and then crying about the gas price that they have to pay at the pump. One good thing happening in America is that house prices are coming down, but that is only good if you weren't one of the people that bought a house that you could barely afford under an ARM, and now you might get foreclosed on because the interest rates are going up (i.e., your house payments are to expensive) and the price of gas is going up (i.e., you just cannot afford to live).

Personally, I think we are in for some seriously tough times, and some of the economists have predicted that there might be out right disaster and armagedon in the US because of gas prices. Hopefully, when gas prices get high enough people will buy the Honda Insight or Toyota Prius, both of which get 60+ miles to the gallon on the highway and close to or above 60 miles to the gallon in the city.

As far as what is happening in Israel and Lebanon, Billy is pretty much spot on. From what I am reading, it appears that the Israelis are targeting specific infrastructure. For instance, they lew up an oil tank at a refinery, but they didn't touch the actual refinery. They totally demolished the cheaper bridges, but only punched a hole in a big expansion bridge that is one of the costly bridges. At the airport, they have only been targeting the runway. They have also blown up an apartment building. The UN says that Israel is breaking international law by cutting Beirut off from the rest of the world. The UN also said that Sadam was violating international law by creating weapons of mass destruction and the US went in and took out the entire government under that premonition. Funny how we pick and choose what we want to hear and/or agree with.

In trying to nip it in the bud, the Israelis might be pushing a little too much. I am sure a lot of arabs are already pissed off that we are in the Middle East. I think Israel taking it to them on another front might just get those arabs sitting on the sidelines to turn against the US and Israel. Weren't the Crusaders overwhelmed by the uniting of the arab tribes? Time will tell how this all unfolds. Hopefully, it will be over by this weekend. What I do not understand is if the vast majority of the Lebanese do not support the Hezbollah, why didn't the Lebanese goverment try to get rid of the Hezbollah? Plus, if so many of the Lebanese people are anti Hezbollah, why aren't they turning them in to avoid this conflict with Israel. Could the Hezbollah actually hied from 90% of the population or is Israel's intelligence just terrible at gathering information?
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  #7  
Old 07-14-2006, 07:50 PM
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Fabs, you've heard of 76 "alleged" civilians killed - as reported by the far left commie Jane Fonda media.

Know any terrorists with uniforms?
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rocky Raab
Fabs, you've heard of 76 "alleged" civilians killed - as reported by the far left commie Jane Fonda media.

Know any terrorists with uniforms?
Amen, Rocky! As long as it's against the Israelis, it's OK by the media!
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:19 PM
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I voted that i agreed, but.....i can't say totally.

It would take far too long to explain my views, and in all honesty most people would consider my views harsh, if not outright brutal.

You _NEVER_ negotiate with terrorists/kidnappers/hostage takers.


Israel screwed up years ago by releasing prisoners for the return of their troops. I think the last time was 4-5 years ago, and the trade was like 200 some odd prisoners for 3-5 troops, i do not remember the exact numbers.

By caving into the hostage takers, they ensured it would happen, and continue to happen over and over again.

Terrorists/hostages/kidnappers are rabid animals who deserve nothing more than to be putdown.

There is no rehabilitating them, no treatment, and no use even giving in to them, since they _WILL_ do it again.

Those are my basic views, most people nowdays simply are not capabile of agreeing with them.
All you really have to do though is open your history books and do some reading, a person can actually learn alot by doing that.
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:22 AM
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We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat.

Israel did what they had to do, I fully support their actions. I do really wish their aim was true in shooting, and could cut down on the non-combatants being killed or injured.

I have read endless books, and watch every documentary over Israel I can. They fought for each and every square inch of that country. I do admit at times they were less than tolerant of some of their arabic neibours, but they live under the constant open threats of muslem nations around them, wishing to wipe them out, for no other reason than the fact they are a Jewish nation. Whom they do not recognize, and still call Israel, Palistine.

Remember when things were going 'kind of good'? And the Israeli Minister went to visit a Mosque, all hell broke loose, and violence spread all through out the country, and suicide bombings went on........................so much for the tolerance of the other side.

And on the Issue of the Palistinians, check on the history of the region, pre-Israel, the arabs who controlled the zones didn't treat the Palistinians like people, the Israelis allow them to apply for Israeli citizenship.

But back to the present, I think Israel will make a huge mistake if they trade a few solders for dozens of terrorist. I hope they don't trade at all. If Hezbollah tries to take them to Iran, they are just asking to get pulverized. I just wonder is Iran stupid enough to back Hezbollah openly, after years of denying it.

But this could get worse, and the US would have no other option, than to help Israel is some way, shape or form. Because IMHO if Israel ever thought they would really and truly lose their country or Jeuresulem, I think they would nuke it them selves, to keep it from falling to the long time enemys.

(as usual please forgive my lousy spelling..........my spell check is in German)
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:41 AM
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Gumpokc,

I agree completely that terrorists should be killed, but not everybody in the entire nation that the terrorist happens to be in. Heck, we have terrorists right in the US right now, but I don't see us bombing our own cities. I guess it is just plain easier for Israel to bomb the heck out of Beirut, and even if the 76 alleged dead are only that, I am pretty sure that everybody within the city is pretty much stuck there. I wouldn't want to be in that situation either. It is kind of tough for any of us to understand what it is like to be stuck in our own city, but the best analogy I can give is the US right after 9/11 when nobody could fly anywhere. Granted, we could still get in a car and leave, which I did. I went from downtown Baltimore, where I happened to be working, straight to DC, where my parents live and where my sister and father were in the downtown part of when all the stuff was happening. My sister worked right next to the Pentagon and when I got through to her she thought we were being bombed and she was worried for my dad who was also downtown that morning. It is a sick feeling.

If you lined up all the terrorists in the world, and the powers that be told me they were 100% sure these guys were terrrorists, I would have no problem mowing them all down. However, if you lined up 100 people, and told me that 99 of them were terrorists but 1 was probably innocent, I would have a much tougher time killing all of them. Now, throw in the fact that killing them might have global repercussions like starting a war and risking world economies, then it would also be extremely hard.

Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture.

For instance, I went to the Outer Banks last week and you would be surprised by the number of young polish people with accents that were working there at the stores and bars. However, they were probably legal aliens, or at least I hope they were. Now, if Americans are so hard up for jobs, why are polish immigrants working as cashiers and bartenders in the Outer Banks? Why is it that these jobs are not filled by American citizens?

Yes, Go Israel, kill all the terrorists. I have no problem with that, but I also think it should be couched with Go Israel, kill all the terrorists, but make sure you follow international law, or you are no better than the terrorists. Go Israel, kill all the terrorists but make sure you limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.

I have no problem with Israel killing all the terrorists, but I do have a problem with the way they are going about it. We could wipe out most of the terrorists in the world, or severely hamper their infrastruture if we nuked all of the Middle East, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. If we send the entire Middle East back to prehistoric times, it would be a lot harder for the terrorists to cause any trouble, but I don't see us doing that either. Why, because it is probably wrong.

Now, who is to say that Israel itself is not a terrorist. Just because it uses tanks, warships, and airplanes to carry out its message (i.e., don't mess with us or we will visit a world of hate on your entire nation), doesn't mean that it isn't a terrorist. Terrorist target civilian buildings and civilians to cause terror in their enemies. Well, Israel is doing just that. Now, I have nothing against targeting a civilian building if you know that a terrorist is in it, but targeting an entire city and cutting it off from the outside world because you know terrorists are in it, I have a problem with that. And where do you draw the line. If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. Let's say a terrorist is in a civilian building such as the World Trade Center over in Lebanon. I know there is no such thing, but use your imagination. Would it be okay to kill 3,000+ civilians to get this terrorist or is that too much collateral damage? That should be my next pole. Is it okay to kill 3,000 innocent, and I mean innocent, arab civilians to get Osama Bin Laden? Not all arabs are terrorists. Heck, I believe the majority are peaceful people.
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:51 AM
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Jon,

"We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat."

It is easy to say that because attacking Mexico is easy. There are no repercussions because Mexico is weak and there is little possibility of causing World War III. However, would you attack Mexico if one of its citizens happened to kill one of our border guards and it wasn't an act sanctioned by Mexico. Would you actually bomb Mexico City and cut it off from the rest of the world in search of those soldiers? How long would you keep the city under siege? 100's of thousands of innocents, maybe millions, will suffer because of the acts of a limited few that just happen to be citizens of their country. Acts that are not backed by the country itself.

I ask a lot of questions in all of my replies, but nobody actually gives me straight up answers to them in reply.

Would you go against Mexico if it was stronger and going against it would mean additional casualties for the US? How many additional US casualties would you be willing to stomach to recover a single border guard?
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Old 07-15-2006, 08:17 AM
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Sorry, Fabs. Every one of your questions would require a treatise to answer.

A favorite tactic of the terrorists is to strike, and then hide among civilians. They locate their headquarters next to schools, hospitals or mosques (or IN mosques) specifically to either deter any return strike at all, or to wail about civilian casualties if they are hit. They're to blame if civilians get hit.

The issue is not with the citizens of innocent countries in which they hide (I'll give those countries the benefit of doubt whether they're actually welcoming the terrorists.) But if those countries don't act to expel terrorists, they are as much to blame as the terrorists for civilian deaths.

But the Israelis are not.

(oh BTW, Israeli fighter pilots are the best in the world. Bar none, even our own. Really. Their air-ground misses can be measured in feet, and not a single one has ever been shot down in an air-to-air engagement. Zero.)
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Old 07-15-2006, 01:46 PM
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I'm solidly with Rocky on this.

A populace has no direct control over terrorists, however, if they do not take matters into their own hands to expel, or eradicate those same terrorists, then they are giving them support, if only by indirect means, by allowing them cover and concealment.


QUOTE Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture. ENDQUOTE

It is a very black and white issue, the only shades of gray are cast by those who overcomplicate the issue, or by the supporters of the terrorists themselves, using those issues to confuse those who act against them.



QUOTE . If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. ENDQUOTE

Thats funny, I was going to ask you the same thing.
Hw many people are you condemming to death, rape, torture, destroyed families by not dealing decisively in the first place?
How many years/decades/centuries will your populace pay the price for the ones before them who could not do what needed to be done.

It's like cancer or gangrene, just how much of either are you willing to accept living with?

Sometimes choices _MUST_ be made that for sentimental or emotional reasons are very difficult. Logically there is no problem with what must be done, but people cloud the issues with nonessential BS.

Lets go back to the cancer/gangrene example.

Little Billy's arm has gangrene, to effectively treat it, it must be amputated far enough above the infection so that it does not travel further. There is no question what must be done. Yes it's sad, it will cause alot of pain, an some suffering, but the alternative is much worse.

They could say " oh well lets just take a little and see if that stops it" , then a little more, then some more, then some more, until it finally got into his bloodstream and killed him.

Sure they saved him from havign the amutation all at once,but how many times did they put him and his family throug the same emotional wringer? how much more did this cost, in scaring,money, both physical and emotional pain?

Now which would have been the better choice from the start?

If you cannot make the tough decisions for yourself, don't question the people who can _when you don't know the full story/reasons behinds their decisions_!
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Old 07-15-2006, 02:55 PM
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Not only that, but flip the scenario and ask this:

If a terrorist is in an AIRLINER, what is the acceptable collateral damage to civilians HE CAUSES?

Their aim is clear, voiced and attested to by their own leaders: eradicate all "nonbelievers". That includes not just Israel and the US, but all non Islamists even other sects of Islam. In short, most of the human race.

They're making it black and white for us, I'd say.
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