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Old 09-24-2008, 09:40 PM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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Let's Save America NOW... and make some money

Subject: Fw: Birk Economic Plan

I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG. Instead, I'm in
favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a We Deserve It Dividend.
To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide
U.S. Citizens 18+.

Our population is about 301,000,000 ± counting every man, woman and
child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up.. So
divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00.
My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a We Deserve It
Dividend. Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So let's assume a tax
rate of 30%.

Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends
$25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam. But it means that every adult
18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife has $595,000.00.

What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family?
Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved.
Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads
Put away money for college - it'll be there
Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs.
Buy a new car - create jobs
Invest in the market - capital drives growth
Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves
Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else

Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+ including the folks
who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company that is
cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces.

If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of
trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic incentive that is
being proposed by one of our candidates for President.

If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult
U S Citizen 18+!

As for AIG - liquidate it.
Sell off its parts.
Let American General go back to being American General.
Sell off the real estate.
Let the private sector bargain hunters cut it up and clean it up.

Here's my rationale. We deserve it and AIG doesn't. Sure it's a crazy
idea that can "never work." But can you imagine the Coast-To-Coast Block
Party!

How do you spell Economic Boom? I trust my fellow adult Americans to
know how to use the $85 Billion We Deserve It Dividend more than I do
the geniuses at AIG or in Washington DC.

And remember, The Birk plan only really costs $59.5 Billion because
$25.5 Billion is returned instantly in taxes to Uncle Sam. Ahhh...I
feel so much better getting that off my chest. Kindest personal regards,


Birk
T. J. Birkenmeier, A Creative Guy &am p; Citizen of the Republic
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Old 09-26-2008, 11:41 AM
fishdoggydog fishdoggydog is offline
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Too bad the math is wrong, $425.
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:00 PM
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petey petey is offline
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$425 to buy him some education
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:53 PM
Adam Helmer Adam Helmer is offline
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Whatever the math, I am against any "Bailouts" (Hand Outs).

It seems we have Capitalism on the way UP and Socialism on the way Down. I thought Bush was out of his mind to OPPOSE taking away the Executives' Golden Parachutes of $25 to $50 million dollars for top brass that bankrupted their companies.

In my town Treat's Hardware is currently having a liquidation sale-the store is failing after 10 years of being in business. Where is Treat's BAILOUT?

I say let the greedy bankers go down the tubes. Tossing tax dollars to the tune of $700 Billion is addressing the CONDITION and NOT the CAUSE of this finanicial mess. We need to fix individual responsibility and let the chips fall where they may WITHOUT my tax dollars.

Adam
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Old 09-26-2008, 03:32 PM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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The Democratic Way

Adam.... That is not the Democratic way to solve problems... they are for the welfare state... both corporate and individual... that way, what they give, they can take away....

Aloha...
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:01 PM
L. Cooper L. Cooper is offline
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Every time "socialism" gets mentioned, people here spit because they believe that it will never work due to human nature. The Seven Deadly Sins will make it fail, especially Sloth, Gluttony, Greed, and Envy.

Well, the same truth works for unfettered free markets too. The same human foibles are responsible for the current economic disaster. Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Pride, and Envy were allowed to run High Finance with no supervision, and we all now know the consequences of that.

Unfettered free enterprise will destroy us all; a completely ideologically driven socialist economy will fail for the same reasons.

Perhaps it's time to think about an intelligently managed economic system that combines both free market and social democratic principles, and that is sustainable and equitable in ways that can avoid disasters like the one we are a flirting with right now, while providing quality of life for everyone.

"Free market" is not a curse, but neither is "socialism". They can both teach us truths about how to live well.
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:01 PM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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I absolutely disagree with you. Socialism does not work, has not worked, and under most worldviews doesn't have the nourishment to survive.

Aloha....
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Old 09-26-2008, 08:15 PM
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fabsroman fabsroman is offline
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Let's all keep one thing in mind. It wasn't just the financial institution executives that got us into this mess, but the individual taxpayers themselves that suffered from Greed, Gluttony, Sloth, Pride, and Envy. They financed way more than they could afford while hoping they would be able to afford it in the future, and now they too are looking for a bailout.

Recently, I have been attending some CPE seminars that are required to retain my CPA license. The sentiment from most of the CPA's at these seminars is that the majority of their clients are fiscally irresponsible. They buy new cars every 2 or 3 years, carry balances on their credit cards that they pay interest on, and continue to take lavish vacations while paying all this interest. I have these clients too, and they continue to take these vacations while they are struggling to pay their mortgage and they have $20,000+ in debt. Last tax season, I saw a couple take out a $100,000 home equity loan on a home worth $400,000, so they could pay off $100,000 of credit card debt.

The most equitable thing I can think of to try and get us out of this mess, is a tax cut, and we can include an increase in the EIC while we are at it. It will help out the people that are strapped with credit, and it will reward those of us that were sensible with our credit. Plus, I might be a little more motivated to actually work since I have figured out that 50+% of what I make is going toward taxes, and 56% if we spend it since the sales tax in Maryland is 6%.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:17 PM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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I agree.... remember that R means RIGHT.... so vote R...

Aloha... Tom
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:11 AM
L. Cooper L. Cooper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by rattus58
I absolutely disagree with you. Socialism does not work, has not worked, and under most worldviews doesn't have the nourishment to survive.

Aloha....
You didn't read what I said at all. Now THAT is just blind prejudice.
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Old 09-27-2008, 04:00 AM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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Origianally Posted by L. Cooper

"Perhaps it's time to think about an intelligently managed economic system that combines both free market and social democratic principles, and that is sustainable and equitable in ways that can avoid disasters like the one we are a flirting with right now, while providing quality of life for everyone.

"Free market" is not a curse, but neither is "socialism". They can both teach us truths about how to live well."

Now you say that I didn't read what you say.. Newsflash.... I not only read it my friend, I actually understand what you wrote. Now as for Blind Predujice, 1) I read what you said.. so I'm not blind... 2) I read what you said.. and I understand what you said...

Now here is what I said... " absolutely disagree with you. Socialism does not work, has not worked, and under most worldviews doesn't have the nourishment to survive."

My dad came from a socialist environment, worked his way across the country through another socialist environment. I live in Hawaii... the socialist republic of the Pacific... we are the experiment Mr. L Cooper and have lived it, seen it, breathed it, and recognize how we live off of Washingtons glorius succulent teat... No Mr. L. Cooper... I have a disagreement with you.. which is MY OPINION... of which I am completely entitled to. You live your dream the way you think it will help you... begging in line for your handout if you want want but socialism under any "regime" is not for me... not now, not ever, that is not what America is about or how we came about... So... Mr. L Cooper... there is no blind prejudice ... there is REAL prejudice about socialism in my life...
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:27 AM
L. Cooper L. Cooper is offline
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Well, that proves something, alright Rattus. I agree with you that your last post represents real prejudice. What you don’t understand is that prejudice is never a good thing. Ever.

When I first started reading Hunt Chat it was a really great site for hunting and shooting information of all kinds. There are still some people here who are unparalleled sources of information about both. Eventually, I moved from lurking to occasional postings. I checked the site almost every day at some point. Not any more.

I don’t know if anyone else has noticed that there are far fewer hunting and shooting information enquiries and discussions than there used to be, but I feel there are. Bigbrother is hanging out in the Beyond 500 Yards forum asking where everyone went. I used to love reading about those guys and their techniques and equipment. I didn’t do that stuff, and I always thought they were a little nuts, but it was fascinating. Now, nothing.

Is anyone else wondering why this site is slowly contracting in numbers with a kind of evolutionary change in the topics of conversation away from the hunting and shooting focus it had to a kind of angry, protectionist, and extreme right wing social and political whining? It’s just not much fun any more.

It used to be that disagreement was met with disagreement and argument: just what I would expect from reasonable, but strong minded people. Now, my attempt to stir a reasonable discussion of causes and possible solutions to a very serious economic issue is met with ridicule, anger, and “real prejudice”. The level of name calling is very sad. Just look at how many times in the last month Obama’s name has been twisted into rhyming jokes like I used to see in the elementary school yard.

Why is it necessary to call him names? Is genuine political discussion now impossible? What happened to the ideals of respect for individuals, free speech, democracy, and the right to think whatever you wanted? How did disagreeing with someone come to mean it is time to whip out the name calling and insults? Is all this part of the reason the “Tools of the Trade” section is basically dead? Have people just quit coming here because Hunt Chat has lost its focus, and is now a narrow minded source of “real prejudice”?

To the moderators who still seem to me to be trying, I wish you the best. Several of you have helped me in the past with advice on guns and shooting, and I have enjoyed discussions of other things with you too. But it just isn’t very informative to come here any more. And the attitude I get now if I say anything about my own social or political opinions is almost always angry, condescending, and insulting. No discussion; just the assumption I am stupid.

Hunt Chat is not what it was. It has lost its focus, and gained too much angry prejudice. I will be back to read this thread and see what reactions this post gets, but I will not post here again.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:38 AM
scalerman scalerman is offline
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Fabs while I agree with you on many levels I still think that the institutions that are giving credit cards and mortgagaes to those people who should not have them need to look in the mirror and take at least some of the responsibility for this situation. If I give a loaded gun to my child and "turn him loose" and then express shock and surprise at the damage created by that, would that not seem to the rest of us an unreasonable position? The credit card companies send credit cards to students who are not yet out of school- does that seem like a reasonable course of action? Giving a mortgage to someone who clearly does not have the means with which to make the payments and asking the government to "bail us out" of this poor judgement situation- does that seem like a reasonable course of action? Some of this situation is caused by forces beyond the control of the banks but I would submit that nothing that is happening now is a truly "unique" situation. When my business was failing there was no bailout for me, as a matter of fact it was the government itself that put me out of business. The only response to my plight was "sucks to be you". I had to sell my house- at a loss and move from where I wanted to live to somewhere I did not and learn new skill sets in order to be able to feed my family. It was 5 years before we were able to buy a house. Nobody came to my aid- nobody offered assistance and nobody cared. These institutions have dug their own holes and now are asking the taxpayers to help fill that hole in. I see this as no different than the criminal who blames his environment for the crimes he commits. I say that more considered positions must be taken by these businesses as they look at offering credit. The first business venture I attempted to start was laughed out of every bank in my home town- because the bank managers did not beleive that a 20 year old kid had the ability to pay back the loan. the guy that has a part time job at Wal-Mart does not have the abliity to pay back the mortgage- don't give him one. The student does not have the means to pay off the monthly balance of his credit card- don't give him one. Thses things are not a right of citizenship but privileges that must be earned. Just MHO.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:45 PM
rattus58 rattus58 is offline
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L. Cooper....

Iam honest of my OPINION and I am decidedly willing to debate. When it comes to people like Obama, he brings it upon himself. He looks down his nose at people, is very condescending, and brings to people a very visceral reaction. That, plus the very viscious attacks that McCain and Palin receive from Demoncrats and the rest of the left, just fosters gleeful like response. And besides, those with whom you have to walk around with a fact checker to get the real story don't garner trust.

As for socialism, since you are such a proponent, please be my guest, expound upon just what socialist program works?

Aloha...
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Old 09-27-2008, 02:12 PM
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fabsroman fabsroman is offline
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Rattus,

First off, what you are experiencing is not prejudice. Prejudice comes from prejudging something. What you are experiencing is close to hatred based upon what you have actually experienced. They are quite different.

Scalerman,

I agree with you completely. I don't think there should be bailouts for anybody, homeowner or financial institution. Everybody knew what they were doing, they took a chance because they wanted money, and they got burned. Kind of like people with money invested in some IPO's and tech stocks back in 2001/2002. There was no bailout for them either. In my post, I said it wasn't JUST the financial executives that got us into this mess. I didn't say it was ALL the homeowners' fault or that the homeowners were the ONLY ones to blame.

I was actually discussing this with my wife last night. If I do work for a client and let them run up a $30,000 tab before I cut off services to them, and they don't pay me, who is coming to my rescue. Over the past 6 years I have been practicing on my own, I have had 3 clients declare bankruptcy on me and have lost about $5,000 in fee. Nobody is coming to give me a handout on those losses.

I feel as though real estate prices were way too high anyway, and this adjustment is what we need so people can actually afford homes in the future. Further, I am hoping that people will learn from this and not spend, spend, spend without saving anything.
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