Legally, Does My Child Have Rights?
 

My 7th grade son had something happen to him recently that Im not too happy about. Thought I would post it and see if anyone else has experienced this or if maybe Fabs or someone would know what the law is. I have contacted an atty, but will be a bit before I get to talk to him.

My son was in PE class a few weeks ago. Some kid brought a $300 watch to school. Dont know why, but he did. Someone stole it. (Big surprise :rolleyes: ) The school has a "resource officer" who is a city cop that deals with the schools only. (Hes a real jackass btw.)

Anyway, he locked all the kids in the class in the locker room and told them he would keep them there all night, or until he got the watch back. Then, he frisked each of the kids, twice, and searched their lockers, book bags and gym bags, twice. No call before or after to us or letter from the school. My son said he accused several kids, including him, without any proof. Sad thing is, this is the basketball team, and to my knowledge, none of them have ever been in trouble for anything. Most are on the honor roll. He didnt frisk the coach, he would have been my prime suspect (you gotta know the guy), or go thru any of his stuff. He didnt find the watch on any of these kids. My son told him he saw someone walking out with it when he first asked, and that kid was later caught with it. But he still flexed his muscle and scared these kids and made them feel like criminals.

Am I wrong to be pissed about this? Do kids not have any rights at school? Do parents not have to be notified before they are treated to this kind of search and accusation?

Andy

Sad to say
 

But I don't think the kids have any constitutional rights at all in school. BUT I would sure be making some waves with this guy's superiors. As far as I could possibly take it. Don't think he has the right to lock the kids in a room like that. Especially young kids. I think I would let him know he may have made an inappropriate touching search on my child..just for scares ya know. Some cops seem to think they can do as they want and the kids don't know their rights. They usually get away with it too. As far as searching the lockers etc..I think they can do that. Not knocking cops..just some go a little(or a lot) too far.

I would take issue with the personal search..........the lockers, well that seems to be the norm these days. I take it the coach was OK with this? He would be the person in charge of the class.
I don't know your state laws but given the situation I would think that contacting the parents or a legal guardian prior to the physical search would have been in order.

The courts take a VERY dim view of unlawful imprisonment. Forcibly holding the kids in the locker room undoubtedly qualifies.

I don't know how schools can get around the fact that book bags and such are personal effects, and either a warrant or exigent circumstances are needed for a permissionless search.

Lockers are a little different. It used to be that you paid "locker rental". Then, it turned out that when you rent something, you are entitled to the undisturbed use of it, and the landlord (school) has no right to search it. So now, it's a "locker fee". I'd bet that a good attorney could argue that it is still a defacto rental.

Sounds to me like Deputy Dog is in deep kim-chi.

You don't get any special rights in schools for your lockers, regardless of whether you pay a fee or not. You DO have a right to privacy, however, and in order to usurp that privalege or right, there has to be cause.

In this case I would think that cause was justified for them to search ALL of the lockers assuming that there was proper supervision.

Where I think that the students have cause here for complaint is the lack of parental notification after the fact even, and then you may also have the argument of duress for some that might have accompanied the threat... though most kids would have probably stuck it out just to see the fall out later.

A physical search of a kid, on the other hand, I believe has certain other criteria. We deal with kids a lot, and trust me, you cannot put your hands on them no matter what without absolute cause and searches of kids can go no further than the REQUEST to empty your pockets. Other wise you are dealing with the parents or you turn it over to the police.

Aloha... :cool:

This is one of those tough cases. Not on the legal aspect, but on the moral aspect. A kid had his watch stolen, an expensive watch, and now we are complaining because children were searched.

You guys are the same ones that complain about criminals being let off on some technicality, or about people suing all the time over stupid stuff. Getting an attorney involved in this is kind of crazy unless the detention and search were utterly insane.

Now, as far as the law is concerned, generally the school has the right to search the locker and everything in it. If the person was an actual police officer and he had probable cause to detain the kids, you are SOL about the detaining of the children and the searching of the children. The big question is going to be whether or not he had probable cause. Now, if he is a security guard, that would be a different matter altogether.

At the end of the day, justice was served and the watch was returned to the kid that owned it. I know I would have wanted the same thing done if somebody had stolen my watch. However, I have no idea how long the kids were detained and how bad the search was. Were they detained for hours and given a cavity search, or were they detained for 30 minutes and given a pat down to see if they had the watch?

I hate the searches that they do at the airports, but once I am on that plane I am pretty glad they do them. If your son loses something expensive, you will probably hope that the police exert the same effort in trying to recover it. I always tend to look at it from both sides, not just one.

I will be interested to hear what your attorney has to say about it.

FABS, FABS, FABS
 

If this happened anywhere else the criminals or whatever would have gotten off and you know they took too many steps past the law. Yes justice for the stolen watch was served but in another vein justice for the detained kids and the searches(other than the lockers) was not justice. It was "I can do what I want cause I want to" by the LEO or whatever he was. I've had the same thing happen to me by a stupid LEO You can't question kids even in a police station without letting the kids know what rights they have and you know this didn't happen in this case. Yep I disagree with what the laws have become but the lawyers have made the morass of laws that we have to "protect" the innocent...even if they aren't so innocent. Illegal searches are covered under the constitution even if that right has been bastardized by the ACLU and Supreme Court Justices that aren't interpreting the law but making it. Yes you can't always get in touch with parents and I know some parents don't believe little Johnny would do such a thing as steal but they should have tried. And if you were defending a defendant in a case such as this you would be jumping on this with both feet and you know it. That after all IS your job.... to use the system to save a client from a big rap. Not dissing ya man. This is exactly what you have stated in previous posts. And I do know it is exactly what I would want from you if defending me! The schools have gotten so restrictive because of the ridiculous laws we have now. You can't even punish your child for fear someone will "tell" on you. Including your kid. On the few occassins that I drove to school all those years ago I ALWAYS had a gun in the car. Holy crap..I woulda been locked up and the key thrown away now.:confused: :rolleyes: C'mon man...make a real stand on this:D :D BTW I'll be back in March to do some taxes. Lets go SHOOT!! Bring your dad! I don't wanna here its tax time either. You can spare a few hours!

Well as I said before......the locker is no problem in schools now....in most cases and not withstanding current appeals in various jurisdictions.

A physical search of a minor/juvenile without a guardian or parent present......we are not talking about life threatening situations here with a kid hiding a knife or a gun.......a watch......I don't think so. He had no other grounds to believe he was looking for anything but a watch.

Oh well..........I am quite likely wrong........but it sure as hell would not happen where I live. Most people would be scared to death to physically search a juvenile for a non-life threatening situation incase someone alledged something after. Know what I mean?

If it was my son I wouldn't like it either. If my son was the one that lost his watch, I'd say "They did a good job".

This type of discipline was routine when I was in school 30 years ago and nobody thought anything of it. It was the principal who dispensed the discipline and the parents usually never even found out.

This is mild compared to the discipline I heard about from my older friends that went to country schools.

Skeet,

Yes, there probably is a case here, and yes there might even be a violation of the kids' rights, but is it really that big of a deal to file a lawsuit? Most of us are guilty of jay walking and speeding, but it is a good thing the police close an eye once in a while. Like I said, I don't know what the search was like or what the detention was like, but if it wasn't too severe I would let it walk, even if it were my kid that was involved.

The good thing about my practice now is that I have enough clients such that I can pretty much pick and choose what I want to take. What I have started cutting down on is criminal cases. Most of them are fine, and I have gotten a couple of guys completely off of stuff they did by getting the case dropped. However, what really makes me sick is the ones I get probation before judgment for and they screw up again, or the ones that are found guilty and I get a suspended sentence for and they whine to me for months about their probation requirements. One of my current clients said he would have rather spent a month in jail than to have to deal with the probation requirements. I told him that he can easily accomplish that by not reporting to his probation officer and not going to his domestic violence seminar classes. So far, he continues to go on a weekly basis. I just cannot handle it any more. I actually want to kick some of these guys upside the head.

Okay, so the security guard got to the bottom of it, and justice was served. A couple of kids were inconvenienced, so be it. How about if they called in a police officer, charged all the kids with theft, and then Andy had to hire an attorney to deal with it and miss a couple of days of work. I had a DNR officer threaten to do that to me once, and I had to stop from laughing because it was my third year in law school and while I knew she would never be able to prove her case I just didn't want to have to deal with being in Court and not getting paid for it.

Yes, if I take a case I do my best to get the defendant off or to limit the amount of punishment the defendant must endure. However, sitting in that Courtroom and hearing about the case and all the other cases that are going on makes me sick. Then, having these guys not follow their probation requirements, or having them come back over and over again, makes me sick. Hence, I have tried to cut back on the criminal stuff.

"How about if they called in a police officer, charged all the kids with theft, and then Andy had to hire an attorney to deal with it and miss a couple of days of work."

Then we would have a police officer losing his job and I would be gettin a fat wallet off the city for false arrest and harassment of my kid. Arresting them all for theft would be an extreme violation. Especially when it was proved in court that none of them did anything wrong. I kinda wish they had done that. I could use an early retirement.

I dont know that Im taking any action. I am going to talk to an atty so I know what is and isnt legal. It doesnt cost me anything, I work with this atty all the time and he told me I bought him his new convertible Corvette last year with the business I send him.

Im kind of surprised at your replys Fabs. No biggie, just read you wrong. You dont know how you would react if it were your kid. You will in a few years. Im pretty pissed about my kid being accused of something he didnt do. (especially when he voluteered who dunnit right off the bat) Im pretty pissed about the way the rent a cop handled it. Im pretty pissed about him putting his hands on my kid during the search. Im pretty pissed the coach wasnt even a suspect and wasnt questioned or searched.

As for the kid with the watch, what the hell was he doing bringin a expensive watch to school anyway? Thats pretty ignorant on his and his parents parts.

No big deal here. Im done, just wanted to see what everyone elses reactions were. Sounds like the parents feel the same as me. The atty doesnt agree. Whats new? :rolleyes:

"As for the kid with the watch, what the hell was he doing bringin a expensive watch to school anyway? Thats pretty ignorant on his and his parents parts."

That's not a good comment. Why shouldn't the kid be able to bring a nice watch to school?

That is kind of like saying a person shouldn't be able to drive a nice car because he might get car jacked. Or, if a person is driving a nice car and he gets car jacked, then he shouldn't complain about it because he deserved it.

How long was your son detained? How bad was the search? Did the security guard have a reason to believe that somebody in the group had the watch?

The Constitutional rights apply to citizens, and there is no differentiation between adults and children. So, your child would have the same rights you do. However, you can also waive those rights. For instance, we have the right to bear arms, but an employer can make it against company policy to bring a gun to work. We also have the right against illegal searches, but an employer can make you sign an agreement allowing them to search your vehicle at any time while it is on company property. You will have to look to see if any of your sons rights were waived by signing up to go to school, or if there is are special circumstances under state law that would allow this type of behaviour by the school.

All in all Andy, you haven't read me wrong. I do believe in people's rights, but I also believe in common sense. We have taken so much power from the teachers, and then we blame them for how our kids are. Teachers should be allowed to punish the hell out of kids, and I don't just mean detention. I mean hard labor. If you knew the stuff my brother got away with in school, it would appaul you. Now, he is 34 years old and he isn't much better at work or anywhere else for that matter. They should have made him break rocks after school every time he skipped class, but the liberals would have said that it is cruel and unusual punishment, just like they are saying about the Iraqi and Afghani soldiers.

Maybe I read you wrong. What happened to the culprit? He should be breaking rocks for a month and everybody that was detained should be allowed to put him up against a wall and throw eggs at him.

Excuse me... but who's complaining here about criminals bein let off on technicality? I don't think I've read anything up to now about that but... yes... THAT IS THE PROBLEM... Technicality... Miranda .... Search and Seizure laws... CONFESSIONS

Absolutely... it is INSANE ... but searching a kids locker without probable cause is in Hawaii at least, not doable. If you don't have a probable and proximate cause, the only way you're gonna get it done is if ALL of the lockers are searched with a reasonable cause, and then only if supervised.. (this too is open to question... who's doin the supervising) For us, it HAS to be a Leadership person or someone with his/her direct authorization from... or it doesn't happen. I'm talking about state sponsored events other than school here, but the stuff we get is for all educators I'm told.

Aloha... :cool:

A reasonable dention period used to persuade cooperation or to scare the thief, if one was amoung the group, seems fine to me. I would not consider that "unlawful dention". Schools can "detain" kids for all kinds of reasons, assuming that it is a reasonable decision to do so.

Searching school lockers by school officials is common place and there should be no expectation of privacy with the use of school lockers.

Physical search of a juvenile's body, person, or what-have-you, under the circumstances described is OUTRAGEOUS. Sorry Fabs but I don't accept this as readily as you. If it was my son I would be alot more PISSED than Andy and I'd do something about it! After consulting with my attorney and exploring my legal options I would be making a guest appearance at the next school board meeting and I would be bringing every other concerned parent in the school.

And NO - if it were my expensive watch that was stolen I would NOT expect any and every kid in the room to be treated in this matter.

Don't back down Andy. Make yourself heard.

Fabs, so what your saying is its ok for cops to search whatever they deem necessary to solve a crime? If I remember correctly, your wife is a pharmacist? Should they come up short sometime, is it ok for the cops to detain your wife and frisk her, make her pee in a cup and search her car and purse? Is that ok with you? I mean hell, its just a short search to make sure shes not the culprit. Nothing personal.

Im all for catching the bad guy, but not for Nazi tactics in doing it. I wish you made the rules for my business though Fabs. I could just shoot em all and let god sort em out with your take on personal rights to get the truth at all costs.

You never answered my question as to why its ok the coach wasnt searched?

As for the kid bringing in a expensive watch, you will find out in a few years about that too. 12 yr old, boys anyway, cant hang onto anything. (but themselves) They have too many raging hormones, social and athletic distractions to go along with school work. Sending an expensive piece of jewlry to school with one is insane. Just about as insane as your comment about being carjacked. Were adults. Big assed difference.

Im going to pursue this. Dont know where it will go, but its not costing anything and Im still pissed. Ill let you know what happens.

BTW, Im all for teachers dicipline. I offered to sign something one time to give permission to paddle. They wont do it.

This is different. Much different. My kid didnt do a damned thing.

"Fabs, so what your saying is its ok for cops to search whatever they deem necessary to solve a crime? If I remember correctly, your wife is a pharmacist? Should they come up short sometime, is it ok for the cops to detain your wife and frisk her, make her pee in a cup and search her car and purse? Is that ok with you? I mean hell, its just a short search to make sure shes not the culprit. Nothing personal."

Okay, now it is getting personal, even though you say it isn't. I never answered your question about the coach not being searched because I overlooked it. However, you have yet to provide any serious facts about the actual length of detention or the extent of the search even though I have asked twice. Yeah, the coach should have been a suspect too, but that really has nothing to do with what happened to your son and the rest of the kids. Would you have been okay with the entire thing if the coach was detained and searched too. Probably not, so that question is rather irrelevant. So, how about some details here about what actually happened, or do you plan on continuing to act like the media does and only provide us with enough facts to get us riled up and on you and your son's side? How far did the actual search go? Was it a mere emptying of the pockets and a search of bookbags and lockers? Did the security guard actually put his hands on your son? Was it an actual pat down where private parts were touched? Was it a strip search? Was it a cavity search? How long was the detention? Minutes? Hours? Days? I don't think you have provided any of that information.

So, my analogy about adults driving expensive cars is off point, but your analogy about my wife having to pee in a cup is on point? Do you mean to tell me that your son had such an invasive search performed. If so, I will sympathize with you. To clear something up, my wife had to piss in a cup before they would hire her at Target as a pharmacist, she signed an agreement stating that she was subject to random drug tests and would be fired if she turned up positive, and they do count all the narcotics every so often and if there is a substantial amount missing they do get into trouble.

Now, I'll try to make my analogy about the kid having every right to bring the watch to school a little more on point for you. I have seen numerous threads on here about treestands being stolen out of trees and even read a post about somebody's trophy mount being stolen from a tree it was hanging on in his backyard. I have also had a friend of mine's decoys stolen out of the field when he went to lunch. Yes, these people were naive to think that they could leave these things out and find them again, just like this kid was naive about wearing that kind of watch to school; however, I dare you to tell me that people shouldn't have the right to leave their stands in the woods and expect to find them the next day, that they shouldn't have the right to leave their decoys in the field when they go to lunch, or that I shouldn't have the right to leave something in my car and expect to find it in my car the next day. Again, this kid had every right to bring that watch to school, whether it was worth $300 or $50,000, and expect for the rest of the kids to treat it as his property and not steal it. Maybe not the brightest thing in the world to do, but he still had the right to do it. I have the right to leave my house and car unlocked and find everything in it after leaving it for a period of time. Now, that doesn't mean it is the brightest thing to do, but I do have those rights. That would be the right to property. Of course, there is also the right against unreasonable searches and seizures. The question is what is reasonable in this case.

Now, I have taken so much crap on this board about how attorneys are so quick to sue, and my response is usually that we cannot do a single thing without a client running to us wanting to do something in the first place. Andy, you completely fit that bill right now unless the facts are more egregious than I assume they are. Again, you haven't provided them and this hasn't made the national news, so I will have to assume that it isn't a federal case, pun intended. This is probably something that could be cleared up, or at least addressed, by going to a PTA meeting, talking directly to the principal, or writing a letter to the principal. I am dying to hear the facts and what your attorney actually suggests that you do.

Trust me, I don't like being searched one bit. The first time I flew to Florida to visit my in-laws, the metal detector went off. So, the guy was doing the wand test and he was informing me that if the wand went off I would have to go in a back room and remove my clothes so they could determine what the issue was. Lucky for me, the wand didn't go off because it happened to be my belt buckle. On another occassion, the x-ray machine couldn't see through my camera case, so it had to be swabbed by the bomb guys. Another time, while picking my wife up from the airport, I was randomly selected to have my car searched, and while I didn't like it at the time, I now understand it. Every time I fly and the airplane lands safely and I make it out of the airport safely, I am quite happy for the searches. I have also been pulled over late at night and been giving the roadside sobriety test even though I don't drink. I was completely coherent and my speach was completely perfect because I didn't drink a single thing that night, I never ever drive after having an alcohol, and I have never had more than two drinks in a night, so I felt a little pissed off at the time. However, I was 23 back then. Now, with the harm I have seen people cause drinking and driving, I think cars should come standard with an ignition interlock in them and if anybody is ever found guilty of drinking and driving they should be required to use one for the rest of their lives. I also think they should stop traffic on highways and do sobriety checks every once in a while. Nothing like a drunk traveling at 65 mph or more.

"Im all for catching the bad guy, but not for Nazi tactics in doing it. I wish you made the rules for my business though Fabs. I could just shoot em all and let god sort em out with your take on personal rights to get the truth at all costs."

Again, maybe I would side with you if more facts were provided. I am not for Nazi tactics, but what is considered Nazi tactics? Please provide the facts behind your conclusion that the security officer, or whomever that detained your son, was using "Nazi" tactics. Was the Chinese water torture used? Did they put the kids in front of bright lights and question them? Did they try to beat a confession out of them? Did they subject them to sleep deprivation? Did they have them spend long periods of time with no clothes on? Did they make them commit atrocities against their own religion (e.g., were the muslims and jews forced to eat pork)? Again, my analogy about the car and the watch is so far off base, but I'm sure your use of the term "Nazi" is right on point.

I think they at the school should have just told the kid with the watch ..oh well, such is life..and went about doing nothing. Then dealt with it at the PTA or school board meeting as to why they do nothing to stop theft in schools..This probably would sure stop anyone else from even thinking about stealing from another. I'm sure knowing they might search my locker, pockets wouldn't stop me from taking things that aren't mine. How fair are our rights anyhow? I had to pee in a cup for drugs/ alcohol in order to keep my job. I earned money and paid taxes with it. My tax dollars were given to someone that got a free state check every month because they didn't want to work and....guess what?..They didn't have to pee in a cup or loose their free check if test positive like I would have if I did...Fair?....But it is their right...I lost mine when I got the job/ CDL...Now since the watch was taken from the locker room while they were in class, why wouldn't the person in charge of solving things not keep those that were there there?..I can't see them letting them out to hide it elsewhere first then expect to locate it. I think it was a good thing they stayed in the room and not leave because after the search of their locker, pockets etc they didn't find it so that made each and every one of them innocent of the crime...none of them were able to hide it elsewhere..Since when didn't a little scare put in ya as a kid not make you stop and think what might happen if you did decide later to take something?...I'm sure little johnny never did or does anything wrong...and I don't see a cavity search because how could little johnny hide a watch in those dark places?...I don't see him wanting it that bad....Drugs?..maybe but then again, we don't have a drug problem either anywhere... I sure wouldn't want them searching any kids locker to find drugs he was selling to the other kids in school...sure wouldn't want to hurt his feelings. After all he has a right to sell drugs or steal from others to pay for them....we are just too easy on the crooks and the rest of us have to pay for it in the long run...Just like guns. Criminals use them in a crime but they want to take ours....so again the innocent always pay in the end...bet the watch thief only got yelled at...or maybe not...might make him cry then the school would have to deal with his parents at the PTA or board meeting...Darn if ya do and darn if ya don't....so ...PUNT!

I dont have alot of time to argue right now. Fabs, the line about your wife was not a shot in any way. We have argued enough that you should know that by now. I was trying to link something close to a family member to bring something you love in it so your not looking at it as just another client. I would love to save this discussion and talk again in 13 yrs when your emotionally tied to a child.

I have no intention of suing. Not now anyway. Im talking to the atty so I know what is the law here. I want to be completly in the right when I go talk to the principal, superintendent or schoolboard. So they cant just give me a load of bs and send me down the road and so Im not making false accusations. Is there something wrong with being informed before going into a serious conversation?

Ill give you all the details shortly.

Oh, and yeah, anyone should be able to bring an expensive watch to school at 12yrs old and not expect it to be stolen. My point is kids cant find their ass with both hands most of the time, let alone keep track of that. You will see. That was an ignorant thing to do.

Skeeter, thanks for the sarcasim. I was wondering when someone was going to show up with a case of the smart ass with nothing to add but dogpile and throw some cheapies. LOL

One more quick note. Fabs, none of your comparisions are valid above. Being checked at a DUI checkpoint, searched at an airport, ect... are safety issues. Where was the safety issue here? No one was going to get hurt.

Next time something is stolen in your neighborhood, do you mind if the cops come over and search your property and person? Remember, there is a difference in protecting property and person. Your a lawyer....

Funny thing is, my sons not even upset about this. He didnt like it, but not pissed. Of course, he doesnt know anything about rights or being violated either. Thats my job, until hes an adult. Part of being a parent. Big part.

Andy, between Skeeters and your last post, I am laughing pretty good.

At the end of the day, I think the kid that stole the watch should be put up against the wall and egged by all the kids that were detained and searched. After that, he should be cained by the child that he stole the watch from. Honestly, I think we are too easy on crime.

Like Skeeter said, guns and drugs aren't the problem, people are. If we need a troop increase in Iraq, I say we send all the lifers over there to inspect the suspicious looking packages and vehicles. You want to commit a crime, well then you are going to give back to your country instead of receiving free room and board and three meals a day, you will work for your room and board and your food. Val and I might have gotten into an argument about this before, and I think I was on the other side of the fence, but that was before spending several days in Court this year watching criminals get off pretty lightly or watching criminals not really care about being sentenced to a month or a year in prison. One guy was telling me that Montgomery County's jail was a lot worse than DC's, and I think Montgomery County is a country club. They even have cable. Like I said, they should break rocks and dig holes all day long. What I wouldn't give to be able to sleep all day, play basketball, and work out all day, with absolutely no stress and three meals a day. Why would anybody want to leave. Heck, as the hispanic population increases in the prison system, they will probably start to build soccer fields in the prisons. I love soccer, so maybe I'll enroll sometime soon.

I don't care how many jails we need to pay for, we should be extremely tough on crime. Of course, I say this now and then I feel sorry for the poor bastard with 3 kids and a wife that has gotten caught for his 3rd DWI who is facing jail time, the loss of his job, and his wife and kids going hungry. However, maybe, just maybe, if we were tough on crime to begin with, he never would think about drinking and driving. My brother has had 3 DWI's, done a couple of weekends in jail for his third, and he still continues to drink and drive, and I have seen him in such bad shape a bunch of times behind the wheel that I wonder how the hell he actually gets home alive. Luckily, I don't hang out with him much lately because of his new girlfriend, so I worry less about who he is going to kill or whether or not he is going to kill himself (i.e., out of sight out of mind).

As far as being informed about what you are going speak to the principal about, I applaud you. There is nothing better than being completely informed about something beforehand. If I get some time this afternoon, I'll try to do some research to help you out.

Okay, you snuck that last post in while I was typing my book. Yes, you are right, there is a difference between protecting property and protecting life. In my state you cannot kill anybody to protect property, but you can kill them to protect yourself if there is nowhere you can retreat to or you happen to be in your home. The details are a little more complicated regarding the use of deadly force to protect oneself, but that is the only time you can kill somebody. I don't know how I would feel about being stopped and searched for missing property. If the officer took it too far, I am sure I would be pissed. I definitely wouldn't allow an officer to come into my house and search it without a search warrant. Probably wouldn't even open my trunk for the officer if he didn't have probable cause. Probably wouldn't mind a road block if they had a description of a burglar and they were checking cars out to see who was in them. Yeah, that is a small inconvenience, but if they catch the guy I am all for it. The level of the inconvenience compared to what they are trying to accomplish is what I am looking at. If they are looking for a murderer, then I think they should have more latitude than if they are looking for the stolen Hope diamond, than if they are looking for a stolen pack of bubble gum; however, the law doesn't work that way.

OH ok Andy, I see how you are now. Because I didn't think it was wrong for them to try to find the kids stolen items or agree with your words, my 2 cents is 'dog pile'???... Says a lot about you my good man. You ask peoples opinion then call it ' dog pile'???? Geez....thought more of ya my good man.....anyhow I still feel these kids these days have been given too much slack and not held responsible for their actions....I had to deal with a 17 yr old child up a few houses from me that was a terror of the whole neighborhood....vandal big time....all he needed was a little attitude adjustment....and it only came down to words and a good chase around the block once..was all he needed....so how can you say my thinking these kids now days need more guidance and taught right from wrong or even in your case shown what trouble it can be to take what isn't yours in the first place so they wouldn't even think of doing such a thing.....I have raised 2 kids...both hold professional jobs. Both were Honor students and did about everything there was to do in school. They were taught respect of others and others property....not by violence either....just examples....even if it was ....dog pile I taught them....but by the way...it isn't my kid that had trouble in school.....lmao....

Nope, not saying your opinion is a pile. I said I was waiting on someone to dog pile on, as in jump in the fray. Misunderstood. Maybe I didnt word it clearly.

I see alot about you too, Skeeter, "my good man". Its in the way you answer. It seems you like to use sarcasim and in your face type answers. That speaks volumes to me. Of course, I could be reading your writing wrong as well. Pretty hard to tell sometimes in this 2D medium of the internet. However if I was right, I dont care for people who cant just state an opinion, but feel the need to make smart ass remarks and sarcasim to get a point across. Either feel the need or know no other way to talk. Either way, it tells alot about a person.

I wanted all opinions of anyone who wants to answer. If I didnt, I wouldnt have posted it on a public forum. Your opinion matters to me as much as anyone elses. I just didnt appreciate the way you said it, my good man.

Balls in your court.

I went back and read. I didnt word it clearly. Should have read I was waiting on some smartass remarks and someone to start a dogpile, throwing cheap shots.

Like that better? ;) Now you can still be pissed and smart off to me in a reply, but for the correct reason.

BTW, Skeet, I applaud you for raising good kids. Im trying to do the same. You would be hard pressed to find any kids that are more respectful to elders and property than mine. They are diciplined and I want them diciplined in school. When they do something wrong. Not ran over by an overzealous SOB that probably is only working there because he cant get a job anywhere else. I repeat. My kid did nothing wrong. He actually helped more than anyone. Im pissed by the way he was treated.

someone was going to show up with a case of the smart ass with nothing to add but dogpile and throw some cheapies

Well Andy I don't know..the direct statement above taken from what ya said pretty much sounded like a direct shot to me..Heck, I even had to pick myself up off the floor after that and dust myself off....lol...The only thing maybe you mistook in what I said in my first post was about little johnny not doing anything wrong...I sure do hope you didn't think I was referring to your little one as johnny..a more direct phrase would be some people think their kids do nothing wrong ever and to be more direct in those words, I didn't say this is how you feel...ok?..and what I said about I don't know because it wasn't my kid in trouble only means if I were in your shoes and it was my kid, maybe my feeling would be different.
I do tend to leave what I call food for thought lots of times in a post...comes from my grand-pap I guess...after talking to him it took about an hr or so to realize what he was talking about..believe me I might not be the smartest man on HC but the way I put my words here isn't a lack of intelligence either..but some people have to have the alphabet written with all 26 letters while others can cover it by saying from A to Z, I wish to thank you for bringing the way I post to my attention..I do believe we only see what we are looking for in a person. Does that last statement make any sense to you?....I never wish to beat anyone up with sarcasm even if it sounds like that..sorry...If ya only look for the bad you will never see the good....I wish you and yours luck with this problem. sorry I butted in. Have a nice day today.

Alrighty then, enough of this hugging and kissing amongst the three of us. LOL Let's get back to debating some serious stuff, like which cartridge is the best whitetail cartridge, or how many eggs the detained kids should be allowed to chuck at the offender, or how many times the victim gets to cain the offender.


Andy,

You probably deal with a lot more crappy, for lack of a better word, people in your profession than I do in mine because criminal stuff is only a small portion of my practice. Thing is, the small amount that I do deal with has been bugging the heck out of me lately. I have no idea how you deal with these people all the time.

Hey Skeeter

Your not the only one that had trouble with a Grandfathers old sayings. There was stuff he told me when I was a kid that I never figured out till I hit my late 20's or so.

He once told me in the late forties or early 50's that someday the United States and Russia would exchange ends on the political spectrum. At the time all I could think was "the old man finally blew his cork".

Well I'll be dang if it ain't happening as we speak. Russia is becoming more democratic and we, the U.S. is becoming more Socialistic.

Another good one was one summer day the girl from across the street and I were picking grapes out in Grandpa and Grandmas yard and there was a swing there underneath the grape trellis and we were talking like kids do and I fell in love. Or thought it was anyway. So I gave her a peck on the cheek. Guess who came around from the other side of the trellis? YUP. Grandpa. Julie, the girl was so embarassed she about went up in smoke, and she absented the yard post haste. After she was out of hearing Granpa lit into me like a Southern Baptist preacher on a pulpit. He asked me if that was the girl I wanted to spend the rest of my life with? I said gee Gramps it was just a little peck on the cheek and I'm only xx years old. He said "thats how things get started". Sheesh, scared the heck out of me. Two days later I kissed her again on the school bus. I don't know if it was love or just a mean streak directed at my Grandpa. :confused:

I would have spent the rest of my life with her but it just didn't work out that way.

Best wishes, Bill

Lockers are the schools property and they will do what they want with them anytime they want.

Yeah, I figger as much on the lockers. Im more concerned with his person, not the locker. I would think the gym bag and clothes would be questionable too.

Nulle, would you feel comfortable doing what this guy did? Just going in and threatening a room full of kids and patting them all down, twice? Would you feel comfortable or feel like somethings just not quite right about this? Knowing that all but one, maximum, or in this case all were innocent. Accusing them all.

Would YOU be ok with that?

I've gotta side with Fabs on this one. Maybe its just out here in CA but the school system is swayed so heavily toward the rights of the individual student and away from the good of the whole student body.

My neighbor is a retired LA County Sheriff Deputy after having worked 20+ years in the county jail system. He now works part time as a substitute teacher. He intentially only works in less desirable neighborhoods because he believes he can offer more help to kids there. However, one day he got in trouble when he escorted a kid out of the classroom by holding his arm (I'm sure firmly) after the kid spit in his face. He chooses not to work for that district anymore.

Everyone is arguing to either put ourselves in the kids' shoes or the the shoes of the kid that lost his watch. Has anyone considered the school's or the security guard's? What would you do? What if the kid that lost the watch is one of the meekish, shyest kids that comes to you and says he lost his watch he inherited from his recently deceased grandpa? Not knowing its fair market value he brought it to school to show a friend or even a teacher. Would you want to keep all the kids in that room there to ask them to empty their pockets, gym bags and open their lockers? I don't want to call your kid a liar but couldn't a situation like that get misreported to a concerned parent as their kid was frisked, yelled at and accused?

Now I know the watch wasn't that sentimental but does it have to be?

HuntingVet, I love that third paragraph.

There used to be a day when a child got punished at school and a parent told the child "You must have done something to deserve it" and left it at that.

Now, parents ask the child, "Did you do anything wrong?" Obviously, the child isn't going to fess up to the parent and admit that he/she did do something wrong. For instance, when my brother got detention for making a flame thrower out of a aeresol (sp.) deodarant can, for crazy gluing the teacher's grade book to the desk, for throwing another student's bookbag out the second story window, or the other myriad of things he got detention for, do you think he would admit what he did to my parents? Heck no.

Now Andy, I'm not saying that your son did anything wrong, I'm just agreeing with HuntingVet that schools and teachers have one heck of a time nowadays.

My idea of detention is hard labor. Why spend money on independant contractors to paint and clean schools. Save the money to give it to teachers and have the delinquent kids paint, clean, take out the garbage, etc. after school. Maybe that will get them to pay attention in class a little better and make them study a little harder.

How it works:
 

Fabs, the labor thing might have worked back in the day but not now. I hear young ones talking about things like if they have to mow the grass, they just mow flowers etc then they don't get asked to do it again. How about a sloppy paint job. They never get asked to paint again. Now that one I know because after even paying a nephew to paint I ended up painting everything he had to cut into. If I recall, the chain gang along roads got canned because if someone got hurt they could sue? True? Not? Heck, PDOT don't even work on the roads. In Pa anyhow. Would be a good idea ya have there though. The slap on the wrist and sent home to mommy don't seem to help.

I employ the same thing, almost, I was raised with. Get busted in school, get it twice at home. Only then, they, I never did actually, got spanked at school, and I would have twice at home. My kids know if they screw up, they got it coming. I was actually a good kid in school. Never did anything to get into trouble until my junior and senior years. And then, wrong as it may have been, I didnt get in trouble either. I was a very good basketball player and in the little 1A school I went to, if you could play basketball, you got away with murder. I pushed that a little toward the end.

Also, my dad was abusive, to a degree. I wouldnt throw rocks, use cattle prods or sorting sticks on my kids. Just a good belt works well. I dont think dad did it to be abusive, he just had no patience whatsoever and a quick temper. It was usually related to ranch work and frustration and I was just the recipient. However, we dont get along, never have. Enough about that.

This is interesting. Thanks for all the replys. Im going to be seeing the atty next week and will see what he has to say. Im more interested in if things were done correctly than anything. I honestly dont think they were, but we will see. Like I said, the atty is for my knowlege before I go talk to the principal, resource officer and coach. That way they dont BS me and I dont say something totally wrong.

One thing I have noticed here is a split in opinions, which is not bad, but interesting. Seems to be a pretty easy to see split between an atty, two cops and skeeter (maybe cop at one time?), and just regular guys. Seems the law enforcement related want justice at any cost and others want things done with rights being observed. Right or wrong. Kinda funny since Im in the field. May have been different if it werent my kid? Dont think so, but no way to prove that.

One other thing. It was suggested that a kid wouldnt tell you he did something wrong, even if he had. Im not sure thats exactly correct. Especially about stealing. That is one of the cardinal sins in my house. My son knows that alot can be worked with but stealing will not be tolerated. I dont think he could be made to steal. He knows that not only will I not back him by any means but he will have hell to pay for a long, long time for that.

Honestly, the little dab of trouble he has had in school has been fighting. He comes by the lack of tolerence for ignorance and inability to be pushed around, honestly. I dont tolerate it either, even though I work with the scum of the earth on a daily basis. He actually recently got into trouble for whipping the class bully. He came to me about this kid three times, twice with red marks on him from the kid hitting him. I told him to walk away and tell the teacher. Appearantly it did no good. The last time I told him to finish it if the kid ever did it again, but make sure your in the right. Well, he finished it alright, busted him up pretty good. Both the teacher and coach, who witnessed it, said my son didnt start it. But they had to punish him for fighting. (See, they cant defend your kids, but your kids cant defend themselves either appearantly) Even though they both said he had it coming. Anyway, my kid got one day after school detention and had to sit out one basketball game. The other kid got two days out of school suspension.

I feel bad for the other kid really. When they were small, he used to come to our house and I took the boys to a St Louis Cardinal baseball game once. Now hes a little jerk. I have bonded both his parents for meth on more than one occaision and they are split now. My son says he brags at school about smoking pot with his dad. I do feel bad for the kid.

That really sucks about your son beating the snot out of the bully and getting detention for it. With two adult witnesses saying that my son was merely defending himself, I would have been up in arms about them not stopping the fight and I would be even more infuriated that something like this would be on my son's record and that my son would have to spend any time in detention. That is utterly crazy.

In real life, not school life, a person has the right to defend themselves. Can you imagine having to spend time in jail because somebody came up to you, hit you, and you hit him back, and all the witnesses are saying that the other guy started it.

As fired up as you are about this searching of your son, I think I would have been more fired up and retained an attorney over the detention for fighting issue when my child was clearly in the right.

By the way, I feel bad for the kid too. I really hate when parents are bad parents. Like I say, you need a license to drive a car, you need a license to carry a gun, you have to go through a background check to buy a gun, yet anybody can have kids. Just amazing.

Yeah, that will be talked about in the meeting as well. However, I was assured by the principal that nothing would be on his permanent record. I guess I didnt make it clear, the coach witnessed it. He said that my son was in the right, but fighting was not tolerated. It happened right after school, as the bus was getting ready to leave for a ball game. I wondered why my son didnt play that night and coach came and talked to me about it right after the game. So he already served that penalty even before the principal was notified. And, they are working with him pretty easy on the detention as well. Girls practice right after school and the boys practice is from 415 to 630. He stays after school and does his homework anyway before practice, so it wont be anything out of the normal except he will have to go to the detention room one day instead of sitting in the commons area between school and practice.

Basically, hes not in any real trouble and though were gonna discuss it further, as long as its not on his record, its not a real big problem.

I made it clear that this kid is not to touch him ever again. If he does, my son has green light to give him a reminder.....

Isn't this part of the problem with a zero-tolerance policy?
You have to get your butt kicked because the school is all PC and nothing gets done about the real issue anyways.
This is way off-topic but I've had some brushes recently with local kids and their lack of respect for others. Just continues my idea that all students should serve one or two years in the armed services right out of high school. But the ACLU would be all up in arms over it though.
That hot topic is for another thread. :D

Skinny, thats not a bad idea, IMO. The old deal in the 60s and 70s of jail or Army wasnt all bad. I know we had alot of soldiers that didnt want to be there and surely not as efficient as a all volunteer Army that you have to qualify to get in. But on the other hand, I know of several that are my dads age that probably would have spent lots of time in prison on the road they were travelling that ended up doing well for themselves.

Not a bad idea at all.

So how'd the meeting with the principal go?