Legally, Does My Child Have Rights?

[Andy L]

My 7th grade son had something happen to him recently that Im not too happy about. Thought I would post it and see if anyone else has experienced this or if maybe Fabs or someone would know what the law is. I have contacted an atty, but will be a bit before I get to talk to him.

My son was in PE class a few weeks ago. Some kid brought a $300 watch to school. Dont know why, but he did. Someone stole it. (Big surprise ) The school has a "resource officer" who is a city cop that deals with the schools only. (Hes a real jackass btw.)

Anyway, he locked all the kids in the class in the locker room and told them he would keep them there all night, or until he got the watch back. Then, he frisked each of the kids, twice, and searched their lockers, book bags and gym bags, twice. No call before or after to us or letter from the school. My son said he accused several kids, including him, without any proof. Sad thing is, this is the basketball team, and to my knowledge, none of them have ever been in trouble for anything. Most are on the honor roll. He didnt frisk the coach, he would have been my prime suspect (you gotta know the guy), or go thru any of his stuff. He didnt find the watch on any of these kids. My son told him he saw someone walking out with it when he first asked, and that kid was later caught with it. But he still flexed his muscle and scared these kids and made them feel like criminals.

Am I wrong to be pissed about this? Do kids not have any rights at school? Do parents not have to be notified before they are treated to this kind of search and accusation?

Andy

[skeet]

But I don't think the kids have any constitutional rights at all in school. BUT I would sure be making some waves with this guy's superiors. As far as I could possibly take it. Don't think he has the right to lock the kids in a room like that. Especially young kids. I think I would let him know he may have made an inappropriate touching search on my child..just for scares ya know. Some cops seem to think they can do as they want and the kids don't know their rights. They usually get away with it too. As far as searching the lockers etc..I think they can do that. Not knocking cops..just some go a little(or a lot) too far.

[Skyline]

I would take issue with the personal search..........the lockers, well that seems to be the norm these days. I take it the coach was OK with this? He would be the person in charge of the class.
I don't know your state laws but given the situation I would think that contacting the parents or a legal guardian prior to the physical search would have been in order.

[denton]

The courts take a VERY dim view of unlawful imprisonment. Forcibly holding the kids in the locker room undoubtedly qualifies.

I don't know how schools can get around the fact that book bags and such are personal effects, and either a warrant or exigent circumstances are needed for a permissionless search.

Lockers are a little different. It used to be that you paid "locker rental". Then, it turned out that when you rent something, you are entitled to the undisturbed use of it, and the landlord (school) has no right to search it. So now, it's a "locker fee". I'd bet that a good attorney could argue that it is still a defacto rental.

Sounds to me like Deputy Dog is in deep kim-chi.

[rattus58]

You don't get any special rights in schools for your lockers, regardless of whether you pay a fee or not. You DO have a right to privacy, however, and in order to usurp that privalege or right, there has to be cause.

In this case I would think that cause was justified for them to search ALL of the lockers assuming that there was proper supervision.

Where I think that the students have cause here for complaint is the lack of parental notification after the fact even, and then you may also have the argument of duress for some that might have accompanied the threat... though most kids would have probably stuck it out just to see the fall out later.

A physical search of a kid, on the other hand, I believe has certain other criteria. We deal with kids a lot, and trust me, you cannot put your hands on them no matter what without absolute cause and searches of kids can go no further than the REQUEST to empty your pockets. Other wise you are dealing with the parents or you turn it over to the police.

Aloha...

[fabsroman]

This is one of those tough cases. Not on the legal aspect, but on the moral aspect. A kid had his watch stolen, an expensive watch, and now we are complaining because children were searched.

You guys are the same ones that complain about criminals being let off on some technicality, or about people suing all the time over stupid stuff. Getting an attorney involved in this is kind of crazy unless the detention and search were utterly insane.

Now, as far as the law is concerned, generally the school has the right to search the locker and everything in it. If the person was an actual police officer and he had probable cause to detain the kids, you are SOL about the detaining of the children and the searching of the children. The big question is going to be whether or not he had probable cause. Now, if he is a security guard, that would be a different matter altogether.

At the end of the day, justice was served and the watch was returned to the kid that owned it. I know I would have wanted the same thing done if somebody had stolen my watch. However, I have no idea how long the kids were detained and how bad the search was. Were they detained for hours and given a cavity search, or were they detained for 30 minutes and given a pat down to see if they had the watch?

I hate the searches that they do at the airports, but once I am on that plane I am pretty glad they do them. If your son loses something expensive, you will probably hope that the police exert the same effort in trying to recover it. I always tend to look at it from both sides, not just one.

I will be interested to hear what your attorney has to say about it.

[skeet]

If this happened anywhere else the criminals or whatever would have gotten off and you know they took too many steps past the law. Yes justice for the stolen watch was served but in another vein justice for the detained kids and the searches(other than the lockers) was not justice. It was "I can do what I want cause I want to" by the LEO or whatever he was. I've had the same thing happen to me by a stupid LEO You can't question kids even in a police station without letting the kids know what rights they have and you know this didn't happen in this case. Yep I disagree with what the laws have become but the lawyers have made the morass of laws that we have to "protect" the innocent...even if they aren't so innocent. Illegal searches are covered under the constitution even if that right has been bastardized by the ACLU and Supreme Court Justices that aren't interpreting the law but making it. Yes you can't always get in touch with parents and I know some parents don't believe little Johnny would do such a thing as steal but they should have tried. And if you were defending a defendant in a case such as this you would be jumping on this with both feet and you know it. That after all IS your job.... to use the system to save a client from a big rap. Not dissing ya man. This is exactly what you have stated in previous posts. And I do know it is exactly what I would want from you if defending me! The schools have gotten so restrictive because of the ridiculous laws we have now. You can't even punish your child for fear someone will "tell" on you. Including your kid. On the few occassins that I drove to school all those years ago I ALWAYS had a gun in the car. Holy crap..I woulda been locked up and the key thrown away now. C'mon man...make a real stand on this BTW I'll be back in March to do some taxes. Lets go SHOOT!! Bring your dad! I don't wanna here its tax time either. You can spare a few hours!

[Skyline]

Well as I said before......the locker is no problem in schools now....in most cases and not withstanding current appeals in various jurisdictions.

A physical search of a minor/juvenile without a guardian or parent present......we are not talking about life threatening situations here with a kid hiding a knife or a gun.......a watch......I don't think so. He had no other grounds to believe he was looking for anything but a watch.

Oh well..........I am quite likely wrong........but it sure as hell would not happen where I live. Most people would be scared to death to physically search a juvenile for a non-life threatening situation incase someone alledged something after. Know what I mean?

[M.T. Pockets]

If it was my son I wouldn't like it either. If my son was the one that lost his watch, I'd say "They did a good job".

This type of discipline was routine when I was in school 30 years ago and nobody thought anything of it. It was the principal who dispensed the discipline and the parents usually never even found out.

This is mild compared to the discipline I heard about from my older friends that went to country schools.

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

Yes, there probably is a case here, and yes there might even be a violation of the kids' rights, but is it really that big of a deal to file a lawsuit? Most of us are guilty of jay walking and speeding, but it is a good thing the police close an eye once in a while. Like I said, I don't know what the search was like or what the detention was like, but if it wasn't too severe I would let it walk, even if it were my kid that was involved.

The good thing about my practice now is that I have enough clients such that I can pretty much pick and choose what I want to take. What I have started cutting down on is criminal cases. Most of them are fine, and I have gotten a couple of guys completely off of stuff they did by getting the case dropped. However, what really makes me sick is the ones I get probation before judgment for and they screw up again, or the ones that are found guilty and I get a suspended sentence for and they whine to me for months about their probation requirements. One of my current clients said he would have rather spent a month in jail than to have to deal with the probation requirements. I told him that he can easily accomplish that by not reporting to his probation officer and not going to his domestic violence seminar classes. So far, he continues to go on a weekly basis. I just cannot handle it any more. I actually want to kick some of these guys upside the head.

Okay, so the security guard got to the bottom of it, and justice was served. A couple of kids were inconvenienced, so be it. How about if they called in a police officer, charged all the kids with theft, and then Andy had to hire an attorney to deal with it and miss a couple of days of work. I had a DNR officer threaten to do that to me once, and I had to stop from laughing because it was my third year in law school and while I knew she would never be able to prove her case I just didn't want to have to deal with being in Court and not getting paid for it.

Yes, if I take a case I do my best to get the defendant off or to limit the amount of punishment the defendant must endure. However, sitting in that Courtroom and hearing about the case and all the other cases that are going on makes me sick. Then, having these guys not follow their probation requirements, or having them come back over and over again, makes me sick. Hence, I have tried to cut back on the criminal stuff.

[Andy L]

"How about if they called in a police officer, charged all the kids with theft, and then Andy had to hire an attorney to deal with it and miss a couple of days of work."

Then we would have a police officer losing his job and I would be gettin a fat wallet off the city for false arrest and harassment of my kid. Arresting them all for theft would be an extreme violation. Especially when it was proved in court that none of them did anything wrong. I kinda wish they had done that. I could use an early retirement.

I dont know that Im taking any action. I am going to talk to an atty so I know what is and isnt legal. It doesnt cost me anything, I work with this atty all the time and he told me I bought him his new convertible Corvette last year with the business I send him.

Im kind of surprised at your replys Fabs. No biggie, just read you wrong. You dont know how you would react if it were your kid. You will in a few years. Im pretty pissed about my kid being accused of something he didnt do. (especially when he voluteered who dunnit right off the bat) Im pretty pissed about the way the rent a cop handled it. Im pretty pissed about him putting his hands on my kid during the search. Im pretty pissed the coach wasnt even a suspect and wasnt questioned or searched.

As for the kid with the watch, what the hell was he doing bringin a expensive watch to school anyway? Thats pretty ignorant on his and his parents parts.

No big deal here. Im done, just wanted to see what everyone elses reactions were. Sounds like the parents feel the same as me. The atty doesnt agree. Whats new?

[fabsroman]

"As for the kid with the watch, what the hell was he doing bringin a expensive watch to school anyway? Thats pretty ignorant on his and his parents parts."

That's not a good comment. Why shouldn't the kid be able to bring a nice watch to school?

That is kind of like saying a person shouldn't be able to drive a nice car because he might get car jacked. Or, if a person is driving a nice car and he gets car jacked, then he shouldn't complain about it because he deserved it.

How long was your son detained? How bad was the search? Did the security guard have a reason to believe that somebody in the group had the watch?

The Constitutional rights apply to citizens, and there is no differentiation between adults and children. So, your child would have the same rights you do. However, you can also waive those rights. For instance, we have the right to bear arms, but an employer can make it against company policy to bring a gun to work. We also have the right against illegal searches, but an employer can make you sign an agreement allowing them to search your vehicle at any time while it is on company property. You will have to look to see if any of your sons rights were waived by signing up to go to school, or if there is are special circumstances under state law that would allow this type of behaviour by the school.

All in all Andy, you haven't read me wrong. I do believe in people's rights, but I also believe in common sense. We have taken so much power from the teachers, and then we blame them for how our kids are. Teachers should be allowed to punish the hell out of kids, and I don't just mean detention. I mean hard labor. If you knew the stuff my brother got away with in school, it would appaul you. Now, he is 34 years old and he isn't much better at work or anywhere else for that matter. They should have made him break rocks after school every time he skipped class, but the liberals would have said that it is cruel and unusual punishment, just like they are saying about the Iraqi and Afghani soldiers.

Maybe I read you wrong. What happened to the culprit? He should be breaking rocks for a month and everybody that was detained should be allowed to put him up against a wall and throw eggs at him.

[rattus58]

Originally posted by fabsroman
You guys are the same ones that complain about criminals being let off on some technicality, or about people suing all the time over stupid stuff. Getting an attorney involved in this is kind of crazy unless the detention and search were utterly insane.

Excuse me... but who's complaining here about criminals bein let off on technicality? I don't think I've read anything up to now about that but... yes... THAT IS THE PROBLEM... Technicality... Miranda .... Search and Seizure laws... CONFESSIONS

Absolutely... it is INSANE ... but searching a kids locker without probable cause is in Hawaii at least, not doable. If you don't have a probable and proximate cause, the only way you're gonna get it done is if ALL of the lockers are searched with a reasonable cause, and then only if supervised.. (this too is open to question... who's doin the supervising) For us, it HAS to be a Leadership person or someone with his/her direct authorization from... or it doesn't happen. I'm talking about state sponsored events other than school here, but the stuff we get is for all educators I'm told.

Aloha...

[Varmint Hunter]

A reasonable dention period used to persuade cooperation or to scare the thief, if one was amoung the group, seems fine to me. I would not consider that "unlawful dention". Schools can "detain" kids for all kinds of reasons, assuming that it is a reasonable decision to do so.

Searching school lockers by school officials is common place and there should be no expectation of privacy with the use of school lockers.

Physical search of a juvenile's body, person, or what-have-you, under the circumstances described is OUTRAGEOUS. Sorry Fabs but I don't accept this as readily as you. If it was my son I would be alot more PISSED than Andy and I'd do something about it! After consulting with my attorney and exploring my legal options I would be making a guest appearance at the next school board meeting and I would be bringing every other concerned parent in the school.

And NO - if it were my expensive watch that was stolen I would NOT expect any and every kid in the room to be treated in this matter.

Don't back down Andy. Make yourself heard.

[Andy L]

Fabs, so what your saying is its ok for cops to search whatever they deem necessary to solve a crime? If I remember correctly, your wife is a pharmacist? Should they come up short sometime, is it ok for the cops to detain your wife and frisk her, make her pee in a cup and search her car and purse? Is that ok with you? I mean hell, its just a short search to make sure shes not the culprit. Nothing personal.

Im all for catching the bad guy, but not for Nazi tactics in doing it. I wish you made the rules for my business though Fabs. I could just shoot em all and let god sort em out with your take on personal rights to get the truth at all costs.

You never answered my question as to why its ok the coach wasnt searched?

As for the kid bringing in a expensive watch, you will find out in a few years about that too. 12 yr old, boys anyway, cant hang onto anything. (but themselves) They have too many raging hormones, social and athletic distractions to go along with school work. Sending an expensive piece of jewlry to school with one is insane. Just about as insane as your comment about being carjacked. Were adults. Big assed difference.

Im going to pursue this. Dont know where it will go, but its not costing anything and Im still pissed. Ill let you know what happens.