know what you are shooting?

[Tater]

No matter what he does the media will tear him up.

[Skinny Shooter]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060216/D8FQ27KO9.html

I want to make clear that I'm not faulting Cheney 100% for the shooting part. I'm not even upset about the gun issues that may result. The Anti's are always waiting in the wings with bared knives. My problem is with the way the aftermath has been handled. I may be solidly behind Bush in many areas but in this instance I'm not afraid to criticize this affair. However the opposition reacts to this, the administration is at fault for allowing it to get out of hand. And for allowing the VP to make the judgement call on how things should be handled.
How many people involved in these situations get to handle their own press releases? None.
He should have been the last person to initiate a press release. Amazing... I'm surprised that no one has picked up on this, especially you Fabs. How many clients get to make their own statements to the police without an attorney present? None if the attorney has anything to say about it. That attorney is a rational thinker who knows how to handle the situation.
Makes me wonder if there is a kernel of truth to the constant attacks by the Left that Cheney holds more power than Bush will admit.

I'll agree with you that there were some level heads there at the time. However, I think you will agree that sometimes a little investigation needs to be done to make sure that the facts are conveyed to the public correctly.

Fabs, how much time does it take to determine that Cheney accidentally shot someone? I think that was evident.
You need to re-read my post with the timeline.

Look at the response time we got with the West Virginia miners, and look how that turned out. Sometimes, speed isn't all it is cracked up to be when it turns out that things are inaccurate.

There is no comparison here between the two

At the end of the day, it is easy for people to criticize when they aren't in the other person's shoes. We can criticize this administration on 9/11, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Irag, the response to Katrina, and now the Cheney's shooting. Seems as though this administration has a lot on its mind and it has had to deal with a bunch of stuff the previous administration did not. I don't blame them for holding the information.

Actually I still stand behind my comments about how Katrina was handled. As to the withholding information part, I refer you back to the timeline. How can you sit down to dinner and not consider the public ramifications of what has happened?

In Cheney's own words: Cheney said he was concerned that if the story broke Saturday night when information was still coming in, some reports may have been inaccurate since it was a complicated story that most journalists had never dealt with before.

Which is why he shouldn't have been so involved in the decision making process.

Let me ask this question, would it be such a big deal if it was anybody other than the Vice President that shot somebody.

Absolutely it would be. As I stated in my last post, if you or I waited to report a shooting, we'd be in some serious trouble.

This is a big deal, and we are making a "federal case" of it because it was the Vice President. Why should we be entitled to know this stuff immediately. Does it have any effect on the nation as a whole. Is it required that this type of information be divulged to the American public? Somehow, I don't think this has anything to do with National Security.

It has to do with leadership and responsibility. And I don't think they handled this well.

I too was mad when I first heard about this, but I put myself in Cheney's shoes and started to feel bad for him. Can you imagine shooting your friend by accident and then having to deal with all this? I am surprised the man is still sane.

Thank you. You are making my point for me that he should have been removed from all decision-making about this incident.

At the end of the day, I will agree to disagree about this whole thing, but I think my position is pretty clear. I am going to support Cheney until I find out that he shot the guy on purpose.

Why was a private citizen allowed to make a statement to the press when the White House should have been at the forefront?

And to make myself clear, my arguments have nothing to do with the event. It is the improper handling of the aftermath.

[fabsroman]

Skinny,

I doubt you and I would be in any trouble whatsoever if we accidentally shot a hunting partner and forgot to call the media.

Now, if we accidentally shot a hunting partner and left them for dead without calling law enforcement, then we would be in deep do do.

I think you are confusing what is required of a person when they accidentally shoot somebody. Last I checked, phoning the media isn't on my list of things to do, and I don't think it should be on Cheney's list of things to do either. Do politicians have to phone the media when they get arrested for a DUI or they are involved in a serious auto accident that is their fault? I seriously doubt it. So, why does Cheney have to phone the media right after he pulls the trigger.

If I am not mistaken, the authorities were contacted in a timely manner and a timely investigation was done. Whittington even corroborated Cheney's account of the events. If they failed to contact the authorities for 24 hours, then I will agree with you. Problem is, I tried to bring up a timeline and I couldn't.

If your issue is merely a case of the media not being informed in a "timely" manner, then I think you are dead wrong. If by accident I shot a friend of mine, or a loved one, you can bet that I wouldn't want the media breathing down my neck right away. Heck, the media probably wouldn't be that fired up if it was me doing to shooting.

Don't fall for the liberal media's hype and spin on this.

[Skinny Shooter]

Hi Fabs, the problem with this internet stuff is it's hard to get a point across sometimes so bear with me. Not sure how you're getting that I'm only upset about the media...
I do think they (media) need to be notified in a timely manner but not in the way this situation has been handled.
More importantly, I want to know why there were delays in reporting it to the police and and why the person involved was allowed to call the shots (bad pun ). I won't go through more of that because it's all in my posts.
Do you agree that someone other than Cheney should have been making the decisions? Would you allow a client to make decions in court? Bush deferred to Cheney which I believe was a mistake.

To say it again, Cheney should not have been as involved in the decision-making as he was.
Now if an Aide did the deed and Cheney was there, he had the impartiality as a 3rd party to make decisions.

The timeline I refer to is in one of my posts that has some of the text in red
From my previous posts:

7:50 p.m.: The head of the Secret Service office in McAllen, Texas, calls the Kenedy County sheriff to report the accident. The sheriff asks to speak to Cheney, and they schedule an interview for 9 a.m. Sunday. At the White House, presidential aide Karl Rove tells Bush that Cheney was the shooter, after talking to ranch owner Katharine Armstrong.

Almost an hour and a half later the sheriff is called??? What?
If this injured hunter was transported by EMS to the hospital, why wasn't LE sent to the scene because guns were involved? Why didn't the hospital notify LE that a patient came in with gunshot wounds. that's all pretty standard around these parts.
Something else to add, why did LE wait till morning to interview him? A regular citizen wouldn't have been given that luxury.
Now I don't subscribe to any of the kook theorys flying around that he was "drunk" or there was a woman involved. Blah, blah blah, which allegations at this time are pretty ridiculous.

you asked: Let me ask this question, would it be such a big deal if it was anybody other than the Vice President that shot somebody.

I responded: Absolutely it would be. As I stated in my last post, if you or I waited to report a shooting, we'd be in some serious trouble.

edited to add: Cheney hunting accident seen as a P.R. disaster

Republican consultant Rich Galen, who was a senior adviser to both Newt Gingrich and former Vice President Dan Quayle, suggested that Cheney comes from an old school of thought dating to his days in the House in the 1980s “that you don’t respond to an attack from your opponent that raises the level of the discussion.”

“That entire doctrine has come and gone. Now the doctrine is you respond instantaneously, and where possible with a strong counterattack. A lot of that is because of the Internet, a lot of that is because of cable TV news,” Galen said.

On Cheney’s decision to leave it up to the ranch owner to tell a local paper the next day what happened, Galen said, “I’d use this as an example of how you can overthink a problem.”

“If you could rewind the clock, a better idea would be to get the vice president’s communications operations together with the president’s communications staff, and get something out, something on the wire, right away."


...As to Bush’s apparent willingness to let Cheney deal with the shooting problem himself, “There has never in American history been a White House where the president said to the vice president, ‘You handle the press,”’ Davis said.

Btw, if I make another post in this thread this dead horse just might come back to life so I better not.

Or, I've always been told to never debate an attorney which if I keep trying, we might beat the manbeef thread for total number of posts...

[fabsroman]

Hey Skinny, you know us attorneys can talk and type all day. That is how we make our money.

I head the other night that law enforcement wasn't notified in a timely manner, and I do disagree with that. As far as waiting until Sunday to give a statement, remember that you always have the right to remain silent. Not that I have ever been put in this situation, but if a client of mine was arrested and I was called and the police wanted a statement right away, I would advise my client to keep his/her mouth shut until I spoke with him/her and that he/she could give a statement afterward. So, I don't think there was anything wrong with Cheney waiting until Sunday to give law enforcement a statement, but I do agree with you that law enforcement should have been notified right away.

I also agree that Cheney should not have been in charge of the entire situation, but I also do not think anybody in the White House should have been put in charge of the situation because they were not in Texas. At the end of the day, I do not know who was in Texas that might have been a good person to put in charge of the situation.

To sum it all up, I think failing to notify law enforcement in a timely fashion is a no no, but taking your time to give an accurate and investigated statement to law enforcement and the media is no crime.

[rubicon]

Come on Skinny, Dont quit now, Im enjoying watching you and Fabs agreeing to disagree so much I forgot what my opinion was! And Fabs I know you are up for at least a few more posts.

[fishnfrank]

The deer story is absalutley hilarious. They were at fault all the way around. He should have known what he was shooting at before he pulled the trigger. The owner should have either been there himself or provided a guide. Hope he wasn't married, "hey honey, I really screwed up. The deer hunt cost just a little more than I expected". Idiots. That's why I don't pay to hunt in the states. There are way too many deer just as big as that one shot on public land every year.

[M.T. Pockets]

I've been puzzled how the media missed the story from the beginning. Isn't there at least one media outlet in the country that has at least one full time reporter following the VP of the country everywhere he goes ? If it's so important for them to know what he's doing at all times maybe they should. Even if not by his side, don't you think the media knows where he is ? I seriously doubt that there wasn't anybody in the press that knew he was hunting on that ranch. Don't they have scanners ? Wasn't an ambulance called to the scene ? How do you keep that a secret ? It sounds to me that the press wants their stories handed to them instead of working for them.

As far as making a second call the the Sheriff's office at a later time. That is something I wouldn't have even thought of. When 911 calls are made, aren't they routed through the local Sheriff's office or State Patrol ? I would think one call to 911 to request an ambulance for a gunshot wound would be proper notice to the authorities. Like Skinny pointed out, hospitals are also required to notify law enforcement of gunshot wounds.

If there was any effort to avoid reporting it to law enforcement that would be wrong, but I don't see that as the case here. I don't see the need to report this to the media any sooner than they did. If they wanted this story they should have been covering the VP themselves, how the world do you hide an ambulance going to the scene where the VP is located ?

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by rubicon
Come on Skinny, Dont quit now, Im enjoying watching you and Fabs agreeing to disagree so much I forgot what my opinion was! And Fabs I know you are up for at least a few more posts.

LOL

[fabsroman]

Rubicon,

You know I am always up for some more posting. Glad I actually like typing away at the computer, or my job would really suck. I think Skinny and I might have just agreed to agree.

[jl1966]

I think the fact that Cheney shot someone has been lost here in all the media bashing. I refuse to take up for anyone who does that. Suppose instead of a .28 Ga. he had been shooting a 12 with OO buck or a rifle? We would be talking about a death here. I believe target identification is one of the main rules of safe gunhandling. No matter your politics, it is inexcusable to pull the trigger on something you do not know what it is.

[fabsroman]

Okay, if he was shooting a 12 ga. with 00 buck or a rifle, I am going to assume that he wouldn't be swinging on a flushing bird, but would probably have time to think about the shot. Bird hunting is completely different than big game hunting unless you are trying to drive deer and shoot them when they get up, which I personally do not like because of the safety factor.

With upland bird hunting, a bird flushes and you have to shoot it before it gets out of range. You do not have the time to scan ahead of its flight and check to see if anybody is there. When it gets up, you mount your gun, you start tracking it, and when you get the muzzle in front of it you pull the trigger. If you shoot with one eye closed, like I do when I get ready to pull the trigger, you really have no peripheral vision, especially if it is a right to left bird and you are right handed. At the end of the day, you are using your memory of what is around you right before that bird flushes. If you are the man on the end of the line, that gives you the ability to swing all the way around.

As I have said a million times before, crap happens and we don't know all the facts on this one. He might be to blame and they both might be to blame for this accident. The rest of the hunters and the guide might also be to blame.

[Skyline]

Now I am a Canadian, so please bear with me, I might not be clear on this, but................as far as law enforcement agencies.............the VP would have Security Service there all the time. Aren't they considered a federal law enforcement agency and they would have been at the scene when it happened??

With 911 calls.............a call for an ambulance due to a gunshot wound should have generated a notification to the local law enforcement agency by the communications officer.......that is usually the policy. Calls to assist re a gunshot wound usually have paramedics asking "What are we getting into?" as well.

Personally I think this whole thing is an example of the media turning things into a frenzy....................I think there are probably more important things to concern ourselves with.

fabs is right...........mistakes were made.........S@#T Happens!

JMHO

[jl1966]

I am not a bird hunter as such. I have done some bird hunting, but very little. I must say however that I have never pulled the trigger without knowing what was behind my target. If I do not have time for that, then the bird gets away, better to pass the shot and be safe. The simple fact of the matter is that Cheney shot someone else, the gun was in his hands he pointed it at the other man and pulled the trigger. There is no excuse for it. If you went hunting with a bunch of guys and got blasted like this guy did, would you say @#$% happens? I am sure it was an accident, and Cheney is mortified. The fact remains, that he exhibited textbook poor gun and hunter safety.

[Skyline]

Well actually .....having guided lots of bird hunters and been a pretty ardent bird hunter myself, I have been nailed a few times by over- exuberent bird hunters swinging on birds and basically not doing what they were told. Fortunately nothing but stinging a couple stuck in the skin. This is most likely attributable to the fact that we were ususally wearing fairly heavy clothing. And, yes I basically did chock it up to "Oh well, S&%t Happens." No, I didn't hunt with the offending parties ever again.....ended the hunt for a couple of clients and verbally ripped a strip off them a mile wide.

Oh, I can tell you that the worst gun handling I see on a regualr basis is by bird hunters and guys on deer drives.................

What I mean is that................many pages later on every forum in the US and Canada...........and thrashed in the newspapers too death, I am tired of the subject!!!

I am a little more concerned now over what is going on in the middle east and in other parts of the world.