recomended whitetail and muley cartridge.

[L. Cooper]

And that is why I asked the question. If a hunter is an honestly good long range shooter with the tools and the experience to do it properly, then specialized long range rifles and cartridges make sense. But only if........

The rest of us should just listen to what Rocky said.

[PJgunner]

Originally posted by quigleysharps4570
Curious myself. Most these days seem to want a rifle that they can take a 500 yard or longer shot with. Average Joe don't have access to a range to practice those shots...so it's a "Hail Mary" come hunting season.

I think that 99 percent of the time, I would agree with you. However, in certain areas, that 500 yard shot just might be the one opportunity you get. A prime example is here in Eastern Arizona, my favorite elk hunting area is dotted with some very wide open meadows. Probably a park would be a better term. Once the shooting starts, the elk head out into these "parks" and bed down for the day way out in the middle. Try sneaking up on a herd of elk bedded down in an area maybe two miles wide and 5 or 6 miles long, all wide open with no cover.
Three years ago, I got lucky and was able to belly crawl to the last available cover, a very scrawny bush. My laser range finder said the closest cow elk was 530 yards out. (I had a cow tag.) I wa certainly wishing I had a bull tag about then, because the herd bull was well over 400 class.
Anyway, my rifle was a Winchester M70 in .300 Win. Mag., I'd been practicing two days a week from field positions for a bit over three months and I knew exactly where to hold over at that distance. Shooting from a sitting position, I dropped the elk with one shot. I never heard the report of the rifle, nor did I feel the recoil, although I knew both were there.
I am fortunate in that I have a range where I can shoot to 1,000 yards should I choose to do so. However, I do most of my shooting from field positions on the silhouette range out to 500 meters. Off hand to 100 yards and sitting and kneeling from 200 to 500 meters.
I did not draw my favorite deer and elk areas this year, so when the weather clears up some, (we've had one hell of a rainy season) I'll be getting out to scout the new (to me anyway) areas. Then, I'll decide what to take and what shooting regimen I'll need to work on.
Paul B.

[Rocky Raab]

Great story, PJ and a great shot, too.

I would be remiss, however, if I didn't point out that in the exact same circumstances (laser-ranged stationary target, well-knwon trajectory, well-practiced shooter, good rest, etc) you would also have gotten that cow elk with a .308, .270, .280 or any number of other rounds. The Magnum cartridge wasn't what got you the elk, it was you.

[Andy L]

[grayghost]

.280 gets my vote. I've taken several Elk, Bear, Mulies, Antelope, many Whitetails, exotics and just returned from Africa. 10 of my 16 animals were taken with the .280/160gr Nosler Accubonds. All but a Black Wildebeast were taken with one shot, and he was hit with 3 fatal shots: shoulder; heart and both lungs. They are as tough as it comes for a large animal. Granted, my longest shot in Africa with the .280 was 297 yards, but I have taken one Elk, one Bear and several speed goats (Pronghorn Antelope) at over 500 yards, including a Whitetail at 600 yards. PJgunner put it very well, and like reality is: sometimes your best or only chance is farther than we'd like. It took me a number of years to develop my shooting skills at longer ranges. My fault. I could have shortened my learning curve by going to the range often. I didn't. I practice 3-4 times a year and learned by taking longer and longer shots over time. Taking only shots that I was comfortable with. Do I miss? Hell yeah. But usually they are mid range shots where the animal moves at the moment of trigger pull or I just plain miss. If I hit everything I aimed at, no one would believe me; I'd be touted a liar, game would fear me and run off the moment they heard me pull out of my driveway and I'd eventually get bored with hunting...something I hope never to do. Kidding aside, there are a number of good cartridges available, but pick one you like for your own reasons. Keep in mind that if you go too light on bullet weight, all the velocity in the world can change performance at 500 yards. Do you want to kick the door down, or just knock? I love bullets in the 160 weight class. They may be a little slow at 300-500 yards in non mag calibers, but I've had them break shoulders and exit the far side at over 500 yards on Elk and Bear. Here's a pic of a Speer Grand Slam, 160 grain in .280 caliber. Cartridge was once offered by Speer in their Nitrex ammo. They are no longer available (dammit). I put 3 of these through both lungs at 500 yards (rangefinder) with complete pass through. At a guessed range of 575 yards, I stopped him with a shoulder shot. This bullet broke his left shoulder (bone included in pic), exited his right shoulder muscle (no bone) and due to the loss of velocity, snagged elastic membrane and snapped back into the wound channel where I recovered it. Many folks overlook the .280, but it has been my favorite cartridge since 1981. Good hunting, grayghost

[grayghost]

160 grain Speer Grand Slam in .280 Nitrex ammo.

[model 70]

can't go wrong with the ol' .270win for both.

[RUMLUVER]

I think too much emphisis is placed on the word "magnum" when it comes to rifle cailbers. To me the magnum moniker is meant to inspire a sence of wonder lust in someone that is looking to be sold on something instead of knowing what they want.Giving credit where it is due no tool will replace talent, skill, and practice. Riflles are tools we use to hunt and they aren't very useful unless the owner learns to utilize his tool to it's full extent or intended purpose. I also hesitate to recomend cailbers that are to large for the intended purpose and skill level. Also I would like to get the literal definition of "need" when it comes to rifles or tools when it comes to hunting of big game. Because if we based our choice of weapons for the hunting of big game on need I think that there would be alot of successful archers that would question the need of a rifle at all. To me rifle cailbers are like spices use what you want and as much as you want but be sure you only use as much as you can handle because you wont like the end result if you are not honest with yourself. As for me I learned to shoot out to 500 meters with a M16 and open sights and don't have any hesitation to shoot to that distance and beyond with my rifles now. By the way if anyone is curious I am currently in love with and using with great succsess my .338 RUM. I am using this rifle for my antelope hunt this fall and hopefully my .264WM will be finished in time for deer season in November!

[RUMLUVER]

I forgot to add that my ideal deer round would be a 6.5-06. As far as Rocky's Mangleum statement it has been my personal experience that poor bullet selection and shot placemeant lead to excesive damage not so much cartridge selection. The worst meat damage I have been witness to came from a Sierra Gameking out of a 26-05 pushed fast and impacted too close. I have shot deer with 3 out of the 4 Ultra Mags at distances from 80 too about 400 yards and have had very little to no damage at all using swift bonded bullets and the all copper Barnes.

[Rocky Raab]

Actually, I agree with that, RUMLOVER.

Far too often I get questions like, "I can get 3000 fps with a 180-gr bullet in my Mangleum rifle. What kind of speed would I get with a 125-grainer? I'd like to shoot elk and need all the velocity I can get so I can hold right on at any range out to 1000 yards."

No amount of rational argument will dissuade them from doing it, either. And then they'll come back and say. "I shot an elk at 50 yards and the bullet blew up on the hide! I never did find that elk. Those Brand X bullets are crap!"

No, they aren't. But the reloader's THINKING was crap. Magnums are fine (if you're inclined to such things) but they DEMAND the use of heavy, stoutly-constructed premium bullets. You are doomed to failure or at least very disappointing results if you insist on loading them with lightweight, cup-and-core bullets at maximum speeds. The shorter the range, the worse the results, too.

[RUMLUVER]

Rocky,

I have found through extencive testing that rational arguments and statements only work with rational people. Also I agree that there fewer crappy buullets and more crappy thinking caps!

[Rocky Raab]

Sometimes, all you can say is...

[Rapier]

Rum, Ya aint all bad, with a list that starts with the 6.5-06.... I have been preaching that cat since 1968. :-)

You guys been reading yer own site... Do not confuse me with the facts..... yaba, yaba, blah, blah.

No really, go get a nice single malt on the rocks.... it will all be better shortly.
Ed

[RUMLUVER]

Rapier,

I am also giving the .260AI serious consideration for my next rifle project after my .264 WM is done.

[skeet]

I do have an Encore in 30-06 that I got a year or so ago. It is a fairly accurate rifle to shoot at an inch(5 shots) or so if I do my part. It is also an easy rifle to play around with..and it sure isn't too light. Mine weighs about 8.2 lbs with an older Burris fullfield 2X7 scope and mounts. The ammo I have been shooting is Federal 150 gr and 165 gr factory . The 150 is more accurate but I think the 165 may just be a better bullet for an all around hunting weight. Going to get around to working up a load or two for it...but don't need to with the way it shoots factory. And yeah, you can get those bbls in all those factory caliber mentioned...but if you're in the middle of nowhere you can almost always get 06 ammo. A lot of small town stores don't carry 280, 300 Mangleum(Rocky's word but I like it)..oh and the 06 is much easier to PRACTICE with than the Mangleums too...for the average Joe..not the great guys here on HC. BTW my longest shot on a game animal was an Antelope at a lasered range of 465 yds. That is a really long range(I had it figured at 425 -450). The 130 gr 270 round rolled him right over. I can tell you guys..that is as far as I ever intend to shoot.. I was in Montana and I thought that speed goat was in the next county!