91 yr old war criminal arrested

[8X56MS]

saying what we should, or should not have done back in WW II is meaningless.

There was a bad war, our survival was at stake. Technology of the time did not allow for precision bombing and limited 'collateral damage'. Lots of people were killed.

Germany and Japan started the war, and their reasons were not benign or kindly. They were both brutal regimes, that cared as little for their own people as they did for the millions they murdered.

If some of that came back and bit them, so be it.

I have followed the John Demmanjuk issue for many years. I am on the side of those that say 'he did it', and should be punished. That he is old, just means he got away with his crimes for most of his life. He gets no sympathy from me.

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by popplecop

Can you imagine what the loss of our servicmen would have been had we made an invasion of the Japense homeland? This alone justifies what we did for me.

The question would be whether the Japanese think it was a war crime to drop 2 atomic bombs on them, killing thousands of civilians in the process. It doesn't matter what you and I think was justified, even though I agree with you.

Personally, I think all this war crimes stuff is straight up BS. Seriously, we have rules pertaining to war when nations have nuclear missiles, machine guns, tanks, etc. It is against the rules of war to use hollow points, but if you shoot somebody with a tank round that is fine, or better yet run them over with a tank. Killing prisoners is also against the "rules", as is torture, etc. Well, if a country doesn't want to take prisoners, just issue an order to shoot them all during the "battle".

Ultimately, it just sucks to be on the losing side and it is nice to be on the winning side. You don't have to worry too much about who is going to be charged with war crimes when you are the victor.

[fabsroman]

Alright, so I went and read the initial paragraphs of Wiki for this guy. He has been tried in Israel, the US, and finally found guilty when he was tried in Germany just recently. The man is in a wheelchair and a nursing home. Does it really matter at this point? Maybe for politics sake. The man has been involved in criminal proceedings against him since the 80's. Freaking incredible. Then, he is found guilty of being an accessory to murder for 27,900 people because he was a guard at the camp and he is sentenced to 5 years in prison. They must be pretty lenient in Germany on murderers because an accessory to 27,900 murders in the US would get a lot stiffer sentence than 5 years.

I think this is a bunch of political BS at this point just to make the rest of you feel good about something.

Then again, probably none of us posting on here really know exactly what is going on because we weren't present at any of the trials. I would love to know how they found enough evidence in Germany to convict him. Guess I am going to have to read some more of the Wiki.

[fabsroman]

What a train wreck of evidence Wiki shows, and the final paragraph provided by Wiki:

The unique nature of the legal argument he was convicted under has been noted.[82] Christiaan F. Rüter, Professor of Law and expert on NS trials in Germany, who researched the subject at the University of Amsterdam for 40 years, expressed reservations against the commencement of proceedings stating that to him "it is a complete mystery, how anyone who knows the German jurisdiction up to now, would be able to assume that Demjanjuk could be sentenced based on the given evidence."[83][dead link] The trial has been criticized for its lack of evidence other than an interview summary conducted by the Soviet Union KGB of another prison guard who died sometime in the 1990s, and a Soviet-supplied ID card from the Trawniki camp that a 1985 report from the Cleveland office of the FBI concluded was "quite likely" a KGB forgery.

This thing has politics written all over it.

[Adam Helmer]

Fabsroman,

As a lawyer, you MUST give ALL credibility to KGB "Files." Unfortunately the ONLY witness died in KGB custody. WHAT else is new when one has the KGB as the SOLE SOURCE of "Evidence?"

I watched a movie recently where some people cut the fence and escaped from the USSR. Shots were fired, but all escaped .The two Border Guards chatted. One said, "Why would any Comrade want to escape this "Workers Paradise?"

Why would any lawyer accept KGB "Evidence" as VALID? Especially when the "Source" convenitely "Died?" after the Statement was provided to the KGB? We must get all EVIDENCE from the KGB, Nicht Wahr?

We all "KNOW" the KGB would NEVER FORGE any Document. Right? If we are relying on KGB "Evidence", then we are postured for the Brave New World, Nicht Wahr??????

Adam

[Rapier]

Well guys, I am back, been gone for a couple of weeks, working at the farm, on "Vacation."

Jeez where to start: I know
"Alright, so I went and read the initial paragraphs of Wiki for this guy. He has been tried in Israel, the US, and finally found guilty when he was tried in Germany just recently. The man is in a wheelchair and a nursing home. Does it really matter at this point?"

No comment of ignorant statements like that.

Wiki is a publicly edited source. I regularly edit errors off of Wiki's pages. What a poor choice of information to quote.

Really guys, I suggest you read a few books:
The Theory and Practice of Hell
The Knights of Bushido
A Torch To the Enemy
The Night Hamburg Died
Mengele
Defeat In The East
Commandant of Auschwitz
The Divine Wind
Kamikaze

What you get from these books is a picture of why things happened and how they happened. You cannot take a single incident out of the context of the war and claim it is an example of anything. Why? Because the war was a 6 year or so series of actions and reactions required for the war itself to carry forward. However, certain aspects of the war were not war at all, they were covered by the war, similar to the set people in a movie. People talk about the Jews, but the Jews were just the tip of the iceberg. Read the statistics about the loss of people. The Russian loss is staggering, some 23 million estimated, mostly civilians. These were not lost in a cross fire during battle, they went into the hole or into ash, with the Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Most of you apparently rely on movies, TV programs, etc to form an opinion. I am of an age and have the interest, since very early childhood, to study books, interview participants and go to places where some of the events occurred. I belonged to the 101st Airborne Div during a time when about 30% of the Division was made up of WWII vets. I looked for them and talked to them while I was in uniform. It was the 101st that spearheaded our assault across Europe and they were first to find many of the 'Camps." You would do well, those of you who think old is reason to forgive, to talk to the people that were there yourself. I will guarantee one reaction; you will never forget the experience.

How bad was Japan, you should talk to members of the Airborne that jumped into the PI and liberated the JAP camps they were in many ways worse than the German camps. Or the Marines who took back the little islands after the surrender, where US Prisoners were herded into trenches and burned alive using gasoline poured on them, so they would not tell of their torture and killing. You would never forget that either. Let us not forget a small thing known as "The Rape of Nan king" where the Japs murdered 250,000 to a half million civilians AFTER the city surrendered. The oriental people in the Pacific lost millions of souls, not due to war, but occupation by a brutal animal they call the Japanese Army. Their atrocities are so profound one must make a list and under C include cannibalism, as documented events. Heard about it, no? Why not? Perhaps it is Sony, Nissan, etc. are still run by Japanese Army officers, never tried.

German concentration camp guards were not just a poor GI sent to do his duty. They could always transfer to combat units. Most camp guards stayed not because of what you suspect, self-preservation, nope, they were selected to start with for brutality. Their prisoners were animals and were going to die. The Germans found out early on that a regular GI could not stand the repeated killings, so with typical efficiency; they selected replacements that could and would kill again and again without EFFECT. That is what you are looking at, not a poor old man, but a mass murderer hand picked by a government as a killing machine, a killer of innocents.

Cabbage soup was served daily, why, look it up.
Ed

[skeet]

Originally Posted by Rapier

How bad was Japan, you should talk to members of the Airborne that jumped into the PI and liberated the JAP camps they were in many ways worse than the German camps. Or the Marines who took back the little islands after the surrender, where US Prisoners were herded into trenches and burned alive using gasoline poured on them, so they would not tell of their torture and killing. You would never forget that either. Let us not forget a small thing known as "The Rape of Nan king" where the Japs murdered 250,000 to a half million civilians AFTER the city surrendered. The oriental people in the Pacific lost millions of souls, not due to war, but occupation by a brutal animal they call the Japanese Army. Their atrocities are so profound one must make a list and under C include cannibalism, as documented events. Heard about it, no? Why not? Perhaps it is Sony, Nissan, etc. are still run by Japanese Army officers, never tried.

German concentration camp guards were not just a poor GI sent to do his duty. They could always transfer to combat units. Most camp guards stayed not because of what you suspect, self-preservation, nope, they were selected to start with for brutality. Their prisoners were animals and were going to die. The Germans found out early on that a regular GI could not stand the repeated killings, so with typical efficiency; they selected replacements that could and would kill again and again without EFFECT. That is what you are looking at, not a poor old man, but a mass murderer hand picked by a government as a killing machine, a killer of innocents.

And some of those reasons are why I do not think we should forgive or forget. My uncle was one of those liberating guys in the Pacific. He very seldom spoke of the experiences..or of the powers that were telling them to NOT talk of them. The Japanese were in some ways worse than the Germans..much worse. Especially to our prisoners of war...Many of the Jap military thought of the people who surrendered to be of no use..A real man would not surrender...would fight to the death. So therefor whatever he did to a prisoner was alright. The prisoner was less than human anyway, afterall. And Ed is correct From what I have read and learned first hand..the guards in the European camps HAD to do this murder everyday...the average person could not endure such a thing unless somewhat deranged. It is surprising that we had very little retaliation by the American and Allied troops in The European theater. In the Pacific though..you should talk to the men that were there. They had very little regard for the people they were killing. Most, I think, just realized it was either kill the enemy or they would be killed. It was truly brutal. To many of the American troops it was incomprehensible

[grayghost]

I have to agree with Mr. 16 as well. If that guy had been murdering our soldiers during the war, we'd want justice for the pain, torture and death of defenseless POWs. Somehow I suspect they investigated his past before they came knocking. Should there be a time limit on murder? War crimes? Probably opens a bigger can of worms so I say no.
gg