12GA rifle From Hell--

[hubel458]

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.



The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.




All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..



The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.



Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.




After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.



Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.



A little levity in this process.Ed

[hubel458]

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.



For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.



Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.



And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
Whoppee.....Ed

[hubel458]

The sabots aren't moving and I got to get funds out of
them asap, emergency bill coming... And seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling
them fast in next few weeks . So to get these moving
out fast and getting tested, and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys see if you got time, please
help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

[hubel458]

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.



Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.



Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

[hubel458]

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.





And more important item that can cause lack of accuracy is if
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.



Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.



Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them, after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.



Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support to the
bottom of the slug.If in part of the loads the support gets cocked, then
the slug won't be straight on and can account for open groups.



Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.



Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super size.



Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.



Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine, third. AccReloading fourth...Ed

[hubel458]

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.



A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.



Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

Speed..Multiplier
1500------5
1600------5.7
1700------6.42
1800------7.2
1900------8
2000------9
2100------9.8
2200------10.75
2300------11.75
2400------12.8
2500------13.9
2600------15
2700------16.2
2800------17.4
2900------18.7
3000------20

[hubel458]

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
the best size for the 12ga sabots.




A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed



Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

[hubel458]

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, 12ga Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759 & different slug.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect here. The Abolt barrel about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.


..
Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.



We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

[hubel458]

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..



In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,



You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.




Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.



There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
our 585 cases imported for guys to get there also.

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the
loads we setup.They go faster in long barrel than in short kiln guns.
Our favorite is 900gr in the 8ga wadcup at 2300, in plastic case.



Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet I tapered a little and fit it
inside the hollowbase of the bullet.That's how to get 4 pellets in....Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.




Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.



Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields
and other actions through the winter. Ed