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#17
02-02-2005, 01:37 PM
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ATF Website
Here's what the ATF says about the pistol.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1/20/05 In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing. The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber. Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model). Chambering: 5.7x28mm. Length: 208 mm Barrel length: 122.5 mm Magazine: 20 rounds. The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm. The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means- a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes. According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing). FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition SS190 - Armor piercing (AP) SS191 - AP Tracer SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP) SB193 - AP Subsonic SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP) SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP) 10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law) 10700005 Dummy --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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TANSTAFL 
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#18
02-02-2005, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Like Fabs said, this is hard to believe. Can you give any reference for the ability of a .22LR to penetrate a vest? I agree that the copper coating (not really a jacket) would not be much of a factor. What is it about the shape that enables it to penetrate a vest? You've really piqued my curiosity on htis one. H.
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TANSTAFL
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#19
02-02-2005, 05:59 PM
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Ill have to look around to see where I read that. I did read it though. And, the local game warden, well he was for 30 years, told me about it too. It could not be true, maybe?? But I did see an article on it.
After seeing the article, I was talking to the gamewarden about it and he backed it up. He said they were trained that the 22lr was a LEOs nightmare for armour, due to the penetration. The shape of the bullet, coupled with the velocity at short range, made it great for penetration, I believe was the cause. He was telling me they are much more dangerous to them than 32, 380, ect.... Ill see what I can find. Im bad to read stuff and then not keep it. If I posted false info, well Im sorry. Just one of those things that stick in your head. Didnt think twice about it. I do think its right though..... Andy
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#20
02-02-2005, 06:16 PM
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I would think a .22lr going through a vest might also have something to do with the size of the round and the mesh of kevlar. According to two friends of mine in the Marines, they were told in training that a .22lr will penetrate kevlar. I've never tested it, and don't know of any tests, but that's what the word 'round the campfire is.
__________________
When they come for your guns, make sure you give them the ammo first. Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions.
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#22
02-02-2005, 11:13 PM
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I did some checking. I couldnt find what I had read. I hope I didnt cause any problems IF this is wrong.....
I am going to talk to the LEO that I talked with about it and a couple of other LEO buddies about. I know what I read, and what I was told. As I said, the Game Warden said that in their training, they were told that the 22lr was their worst nightmare. Kinda like "hit men" using 22s. No mess. Enters a skull and bounces around like a pin ball making mashed potatos out of the brain. I will research it some more. I did several searches trying to find that article. Of course, all the body armor manufactures wouldnt tell it if it would. I did find one interesting private test study. The guy that did it discounted the 22lr, saying he didnt think in merited testing. He did test a 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP. The 9mm went through clean and the others didnt at all. If the 22lr is true, VinVega may have hit it on the head. The shape of the little bullet going through the mesh. (This is considering it as lightweight concealable, not steel.) Ill do some more checking, I was just quoting from memory earlier, now Im truely interested. Take Care. (Please, no one go shoot themselves with anything to do a home test.   )Andy
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#23
02-10-2005, 09:05 PM
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They make vests in different grades. Even the best of them isn't going to stop most rifle bullets.
Total lack of information never stopped the news media from having an opinion. I'll agree right away that most news reporters are reasonably benign. However, since they are influencing public opinion, it seems to me that they have a special responsibility. Careless and unfounded opinions might lead people to do dangerous things. So doesn't it stand to reason that news reporters should be specially trained, and certified by the government? And shouldn't the government check their stories before they put them out? They should have to have a special permit, because they are so dangerous. [It's sarcasm, guys.] We ought to ban dangerous items. Let's start with typewriters (Frank Lloyd Wright)
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#24
02-10-2005, 09:38 PM
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Here's a link to the Brady Campaign video for what the 5.7 can do:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/fnh/ Now I'm going to give a spoiler out...they shoot it with a 12ga slug and it absolutely destroys the vest, but doesn't puncture. It's a belly shot, and they guy who does the video has the gall to say it probably caused massive internal bleeding, but was probably not fatal. I have to say, if it were a chest shot, I'd bet it would be instantly deadly, penetration or not.
__________________
When they come for your guns, make sure you give them the ammo first. Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions.
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#25
02-10-2005, 10:35 PM
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Just watched the full video. What a bunch a horse puckey!
In my opinion the 5.7 penetrated specifically because of its smaller sizer and pointed projo. Very similar to why a vest will not stop a 22 or for that matter a knife. But the most disturbing part of the video, to me, is when he states "this round serves no purpose for the public"  If some individual has a bad day (as he put it) and goes nuts on an officer, there are no guarantees the officer will make it out because of the vest alone, nor the cartridge used. Bottom line, bad people do bad things. And does anyone know of statistics anywhere that show when the last shooting rampage or flip out was done by a legal CCW owner? Here in Michigan, this was the argument that the antis used against our new CCW law, that someone would go nuts and start shooting people. In the couple of years it has been in effect, to my knowledge, this has never happened.
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#26
02-15-2005, 12:53 AM
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Guys this is one of the problems we have. Once a statement hits the media, audio, video or print, a certain percentage of people are going to adopt that statement as correct and proper. The media loves it, especially if it involves a controversial subject like gun control (bans). Sensationalism sells advertisement. I deal with the media some in my line of work...try to tell them something good or positive...they don't want to hear it.
The anti-gunners get a free ride every time, they get air time from any negative aspect of gun ownership. Have you ever seen them cover a scouting or 4-H marksmanship event? Do you see any of the shooting events in the olympics? And tell me HOW when the media does interview a gun owner... it's ALWAYS bubba!!!!!!!!!!!!
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