Mr Roy's Rant!!!!

[fabsroman]

It is impossible to explain "people."

Without man in the mix, I am sure the predators and prey would work out their situation just fine. Wolves would die off from starvation, etc. as prey animals became less abundant. However, man has entered the scene and screwed everything up.

Most of the deer in this area would die from starvation if it weren't for farmer's crops and homeowner's landscaping. Until recently, they have had absolutely no predators, but now there have been several coyote sitings. Don't know how well they will kill deer though. Do coyotes need to be regulated? Sure. One of them killed my buddy's jack russell about 7 years ago. If I could have caught him in the field, I would have killed him myself.

What is really sad is that the people making decisions for us are not the ones in the know. As hunters, we are in the field a lot more than them. So, you need to make sure that the ones in power know. Write your legislature.

If I am not mistaken, the federal government just gave the management of wolves to the state. Am I correct about this? Now, it would be the state's turn to step up to the plate and devise a decent population control plan.

As far as introducing wolves in Maryland, there would be way too many dead dogs, cattle, etc. Maryland does not have wide open spaces like out west. There are a few places that wolves MIGHT be able to live in Maryland, but they are few and far between. We don't have a lot of 1,000+ acre farms out here.

[multibeard]

You are right the Feds did give the states of Mich Minn and Wisconsin the right to manage there wolves. I am not sure if it included the western states.

The problem is some dang judge put a stop to the states managing the wolves. I am not sure but I think that the judge was out west some where. A judge knows more about wildlife management than the professionals?????

Those coyotes can do a good job of controlling the fawn crop. Just let the coyotes go uncontrolled and you will soon find out how thick they will get. That way you will know what the people are going thru with the wolves only with a smaller predator.

Two years ago the group that hunts the township (36 sq. miles) I live in with hounds killed over 100 yotes during the winter. This year we had almost no snow so the kill was way down. I can not imagine how many yotes we have out there this spring.

[skeet]

The only answer is the old SSS rules of engagement. Now that I am out here in Wyoming..talking to the local people I have a clearer handle on the problem...the answer is S-S-S. It is too late to debate the usefulness of introduction...they be here. Abd the money that comes from the P-R fund won't be given back to the government. The fact of the matter is the US gummit has the states blackmailed with money and government land. They control the purse strings..so use the only option left! Fabs...after talking with a few of the people around here in Wy...It's really apparent that the wolf introduction was a very bad idea

[multibeard]

That has been happening in the UP of Michigan. Except the last S has been left out of the equation a few times.

They found a radio collar in the bottom of a river when it went into the mortality mode. This winter some one hung a dead wolf over a DNR office sign.

[fabsroman]

Skeet, the reintroduction of wolves wasn't a bad idea. The subsequent managing of the wolf population has been bad. Same thing goes for canada geese in Maryland. Yeah, it is great to have them around here and to provide waterfowlers with a great opportunity, but the management has been pretty bad. They should have upped the bag limits years ago. Problem is that the situation has to get pretty bad before people/DNR start figuring it out. Same thing with deer in Maryland. When I first started hunting them, people were appaulled. Now, I hunt near a mountain bike trail and the bikers usually point me to where the deer are when they see me wearing blaze orange. I have heard comments from these bikers such as "Hope you get all of them." Mind you, most of these mountain bike people are the nature loving freaks. Of course, I am a mountain biker myself. Personally, I believe there is room for everybody on this Earth if Man does his/her job to control population growth of himself and the animals. Your moving to Wyoming is part of the problem. My wanting to move further north in Maryland and buy a 5 acre lot is part of the problem. Humans are moving into these rural areas where the wolves and other animals live. There just needs to be better management of all the wildlife.

By the way, congrats on the move out to Wyoming. You should have let me know when you were moving so that we could get together for another clay shooting extravaganza.

What do you have to shoot on your new place? Might have to come over there this winter.

[DaMadman]

I am about as pro hunting as it gets guys and gals, but all you ANTI Wolf folk are #1 mixing apples and oranges, #2 repeating and spreading half truths, #3 just all around not being very open minded.

I don't really have the time or the energy to debate the points right now so I will leave you with this.

Most of you don't want the wolves, either think they shouldn't have been reintroduced or think they should be all but wiped out because they are (according to you) hurting the Elk and deer population and making it hard for you to hunt.


Well let's put it in perspective.

Let's say that the WOLF was never decimated by inconsiderate humans and the "natural population" was grown to the point it is now. Hmm Let's say instead of killing out some of the WOLVES to make sure there are enough ELK and DEER for us humans to hunt, How about we say. Everyone has to quit hunting so there are enough ELK and DEER for the WOLVES to eat.

the reason I capitalized the WOLF, ELK and DEER is because they are the original part of the equation. They have been on this earth long before man interfered. They will balance each other. They don't get greedy and kill more than they "NEED", they kill to sustain life. On the other hand, HUMANS are greedy by nature. Humans as a species will kill thinks just for sport, not for food or not for clothing, but just to say we killed it. Just because it is competing for the same game animal we are hunting.

Anyway I digress I don't have anymore time or patients right now to discuss this.

But keep what I said in mind, how about instead of killing off the WOLF population to make more ElK and DEER for humans. How about telling the HUMANS they can't hunt the ELK and DEER so there are enough for the WOLF to eat.

I would hate to see it go that way myself because I think that there can be a balance that will make all involved happy. But in that balance you aren't going to be able to kill a DEER or ELK everytime you walk in the woods. You are going to have to "HUNT " for an ELK or DEER just like the WOLVES do. Could take Days, could Take a week or more.... Right now in Maryland the Deer pop. is so outragious that I could probably kill 3-4 deer every day I chose to hunt if I hunted all the different places that I have permission to hunt.

Aaaah I could write all day and not change anyone's mind so I'll quit now before my hands hurt anymore from typing a pointless thread.

Bottom line is I absolutely love to hunt, I love to eat what I kill and unless I have a specific reason to kill something I don't plan to eat I probably ain't going to kill it. I also love to watch the animals in the natural state, study then and watch the interesting things they do when they think there are no humans around to see. Mind you I have shot a fox or two in my day, I have shot many crows for being in my garden. I am not totally against killing a Wolf "IF" it endangering you or your family or if it is killing your live stock.
I don't think that the WOLF population should be thinned to near nothing so that greedy humans can hunt DEER and ELK more conveniently. Humans are smart enough and know enough to have a balance.

[drummer]

I'm not getting into it, because there's merrit to both sides.However, the anthropomorphism is something I annot tolerate. Depicting wild carnivores as cartoon characters gets people killed (ironically, more adults than kids I'll bet).
I still contend that the best management tools are Lorettas Lynn's little pills.

[Valigator]

Fabs truer words were never spoken....it has been a cluster you know what here with the gators, now you know thats what I am into but God only knows what they have done with the other wildlife...I can tell you this though...we had some fricken little bird called the scrub jay or some such thing...ok make a long story short ..Florida decided to make it endangered....they red-tagged peoples property who they say "pairs were nesting on" do you have any idea what red-tagging property does to the property owner? Anyway you could have the tag lifted if you paid to buy equilavant acreage in a state park!!!!Are you walkin with me...so lets say in 1974 you bought 10 acres of land in Florida...you built on 5 and now your lookin to sell that 5 for retirement, extra income , take your choice... but the state red tagged it. you cant sell it or deed it you cant do crap on it, because this scrubjay has been noted as nestin there...to lift the tag, you needed to buy 5 acres from the state . at a huge dollar by the way....then once you did that, you could go in and torch your property for all the state cared...it was blackmail pure and simple,,,,

[Valigator]

Oh and I left out a story here...there was a guy by the name of Bill Haast in Miami since I think the 40's or 50"s he ran the Miami serpentarium...very famous here...milked snakes provided anti-venom etc...well he closed up shop in Miami and moved about 2 miles from the man I described above...then this freak..let loose from his property, cobras all kind of exotics when he was done with them or couldn't find the room for them, no body knows but all of a sudden Punta Gorda was over-ridden by exotics....now my friend is famous, he was the first man in the fishing hall of fame, famous for shooting, and my friend is a huge bird hunter with very expensive bird dogs...he lost two bird dogs to cobras, which are not native to Florida, he deduced that Bill Haast was releasing these snakes and his bird dogs were victims of some of these releases..he made a stink to anyone who would listen...accused Bill Haast in the paper etc for mismanagement of his exotics....next thing ya know, his property was red-tagged....and so was anyone Else's that complained about Bill's presence in Punta Gorda...

Ps My friend spent 57, 000 dollars in attorneys fees, before some guy at fish and game said in a whisper by the way, "John its a loosin battle, pay for the states property and we will make it all go away"...

[skeet]

What you all have missed in this thread(at least the pro people like Damadman)is that the wolves that were introduced were not the native species.. They were a much larger and more aggressive Canadian wolf...which have subsequently almost killed off the native wolves. The native wolves were a bit smaller prairie wolf. If you look at it realistically you will understand that the introduced animals are a completely different breed of animal. The native animals were expanding their range anyway..just not fast enough for the animal/tree hugger types. As the anti bear hunters in Md...they don' have to live with the bears. But the people out there that live with them know most of the facts. I left you a message before I left, FabsHave Pheasants chukars huns turkey deer and I'm not sure if there are Antelope back on the BLM. Doves up the wazzoo as well as more rabbits than I care to see...Oh..lots of ground skwerls and some Pdogs too. Ducks and geese in the area. Saw a few moose up in the Bighorn the other day. One nice bull and a couple of scrubs...Elk up there too. I'll call soon when I find your card again. All packed up

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

Sent you a pm. I agree that a larger/different species should never have been introduced, but they were. Man learns another lesson. Problem is that I seriously doubt they could every be eradicated, so why not open a "hunting", not extermination, season on them? Hunters get another game animal to pursue at possibly a different time of the year, the elk get a little reprieve from humans and wolves, and the wolf population gets controlled to some degree. They could even make a one week or two week period where the only thing to hunt is wolves. Kind of like Maryland with its first week of firearm season where the only thing else you can hunt is sea ducks.

[M.T. Pockets]

Great idea Fabs, legal sport hunting would never eradicate them, but would keep them at a more realistic level.

The moose would sure thank you, no season in the Thorofare for the first time in many, many years.


Skeet, thanks for clearing up the fact that this is NOT the same native species that was living in the west.

For wolves to coexist with man, it requires an almost unlimited free range, especially winter range. Man screwed up the Jackson Hole herd, (and most of the Yellowstone ecosystem) back in the 20's when they developed on their winter range, this made the feedgrounds necessary. Wolves in an ecosystem with game animals depending on a feedground is not a good situation.

The Jeannie is out of the bottle now, I don't like it, but I would rather have a wolf sighting an exciting, rare event instead of the norm.

[fabsroman]

That is the way I feel about whitetails. I would rather we need to hunt for them hard than need to watch out for them while driving at night.

[multibeard]

Fabsroman,
If you need info on how to eradicate your deer herd just get a hold of the Michigan DNR.

They are professionals at it. Our herd has been shot off so bad it is ridiculous. Unlimited doe permits is the answer they found to be the best way to do it.

They may have got the message when the deer management meetings ended up with hunters picketing out side to protest the management strategy's.

[fabsroman]

We are currently allowed to kill unlimited does in certain areas. Problem is that there are a lot of areas that cannot be hunted because they are too near to homes. The deer that hang out there are completely safe. Other problems that we have are that a lot of landowners will not allow people to hunt on their property. So, those properties end up providing sanctuary to the deer. Just this year, I have come close to collisions with deer twice.

At the end of the day, I guess I shouldn't be complaining about the deer and goose "problem" because it gives me a lot to hunt. Just wish we had a duck, pheasant, and dove problem too.