Israel will pull US in

[Hawkeye6]

Originally posted by Valigator
I think I made mention here a while ago, that one of the guys I communicate is a pilot out west. He told me that he was training Israeli pilots and that Israel would be our front door into war in the Middle East......what do you think????

Val:

News Flash! We already are in a war inthe Middle East. See Afghanistan and Iraq.

H.

[fabsroman]

Skinny,

Did you actually read all the articles. The one I read said that neither side is to blame for this decades old war, so how can we sit here and say go "Israel".

According to the article I read, we sided with Israel and were indifferent to its settlement advances in the 80's because the Russians had sided with the Arabs and we HAD to oppose anything that Russia was for. Kind of like opposing communism in Vietnam. See where that got us. I have no idea what the war in Korea was for, but something tells me we were opposing communism there too. See where that got us. So, we sided with one country who was neither right nor wrong, and now were are pissed at the muslim countries for hating us when they have every right to do so. Keep an open mind with me here. If the roles were reversed, and Mexico actually had some back bone and strength, and they were backed by the gazillions of dollars that the muslim countries have, and they rolled into Texas, New Mexico, and California and took them all back with bloodshed, I seriously doubt you and I would be applauding the muslim states for helping Mexico out.

Simply put, I would like to see peace in the Middle East, and if that means letting these idiots continue to fight until there is one clear winner, so be it. Let's just get the hell out of there and let them finish it up. I was all for the war on terror initially, but this war on terror is getting a little out of hand. Instead of targeting terror cells, we are targeting entire countries and governments. What makes us think that we can take over these countries, install puppet governments, and everything will be okay. If we want to take them over, lets take them over and make them a state. Oh, but that would piss of the rest of the world.

Billy,

Just as you have family in Israel, I am sure that plenty of US citizens also have family in the muslim states.

As far as the comment regarding the Jews and their ability to fight, lets not forget that the Arabs have been fighting just as long and just as hard. They were able to beat back the Crusaders, but then again, those weren't Jews.

I don't have anything against Jews or Muslims, I just want us to get out of the Middle East, become self sufficient in regards to oil, and let those guys go at it. What do we need out of the Middle East other than oil? Do we have a sand shortage that I do not know about? Does Israel have something to offer us that we actually need? Is this going to be another Vietnam or Korea just because we have to support Israel?

I am not against war, and wars need to be fought, and since the war on terrorism there hasn't been any terrorist attacks, but at the end of all this we will be trying to hold all the muslim countries accountable for terrorism and God help us if China gets involved or they get more pissed off at us for our actions in the Middle East. They were pissed initially over the oil issue. Sometimes, wars are started not for land, but for economic resources, and we have a lot of black gold in the Middle East and China needs a lot of it, as do we.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

saddam hussein was the guy all in the middle east was afraid of and I feel as long as he was around it kind of kept things in some sort of check over there. You can see how things got out of hand once he was gone...Now I am not saying it was right to do to the people some of the things he has done but the fear of the crazy man had to have helped. I mean we are there trying to tell those people how to live and look at how things are getting here. We have killings every day..do we have crooked politics? As I stand back and look at the whole picture it is kind of like living in a glass house and tossing stones. Oh I love this country and took an oath years ago to defend it and never took another one that said I would not....didn't we have a civil war?...why can't other countries have them?..I agree that we should just leave them all to themselves and let them sort it out till there is one winner..then can deal with that problem. Now that we did not just kick the poo out of them for the 911 thing and tell anyone else that if they mess with us they will be next and they best police their own ranks it is too late now to solve the issue...without stepping on somenes toes...or burning any bridges...war without and weakness within...the fall of every great empire..we gotta get our heads in the right places...we have oil here in alaska but some tree hugger says no drilling..daaa...we wouldn't have to kiss so much butt elsewhere to get it..if we are going to step in with the military...well do the job and get out like WWII etc.....other wise stay on the porch. Who ever heard of a soldier in a war getting hung for murder from killing the enemy...time to let them sort it out themselves...and since the beginning of time..they have been trying to do so....it won't end till the big bang. We are just lucky to keep it over there and out of this country..that is one smart thing our gov has done.

[fabsroman]

Looks as though things are going pretty badly in Beirut. Israel has knocked out several bridges and they are threatening Syria. Meanwhile, Iran is warning Israel that an attack against Syria will be the equivalent of an attack against the entire muslim nation. Currently, 55 Lebanese civilians have been killed by the Israelis.

While we side with Israel, the European Union and Russia do not. Not good.

Here is an excerpt from Yahoo.

In Tehran, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel not to attack Syria, saying such action would be considered an assault on the whole Islamic world that would bring a "fierce response," state television reported.

BUSH VOICES CONCERN

President Bush, on a visit to Germany, voiced concern about the fate of Lebanon's anti-Syrian government, but offered no direct criticism of the punishment Israel meted out.

"Israel has the right to defend herself," he said.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, also speaking in Germany, urged Israel to exercise restraint but demanded that Syria put pressure on Hizbollah to stop the attacks on Israel.

Syria's ambassador to the United States urged Washington to restrain its ally Israel and push for the resumption of peace talks amid escalating Middle East violence.

The European Union and Russia criticized Israel's strikes in Lebanon as a dangerous escalation of the Middle East conflict.

Lebanon urged the U.N. Security Council on Thursday to adopt a resolution demanding a ceasefire and end to Israeli attacks, rejecting Israel's insistence it was acting in self defense.

The Security Council was to meet later on Friday but the United States has already vetoed a council resolution put forward by Qatar on behalf of Arab states that called on Israel to immediately end its military incursion in Gaza.

With stocks down, currency pressure up and trade and tourism virtually still, ratings agency Standard & Poor's warned that it might downgrade Lebanon's debt ratings amid escalating violence.

Israel has rejected Hizbollah demands that it release Arab prisoners in exchange for the captive soldiers but says it fears they could be spirited to Iran. Iran dismissed such fears.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Skinny,

Did you actually read all the articles. The one I read said that neither side is to blame for this decades old war, so how can we sit here and say go "Israel".

According to the article I read, we sided with Israel and were indifferent to its settlement advances in the 80's because the Russians had sided with the Arabs and we HAD to oppose anything that Russia was for. Kind of like opposing communism in Vietnam. See where that got us. I have no idea what the war in Korea was for, but something tells me we were opposing communism there too. See where that got us. So, we sided with one country who was neither right nor wrong, and now were are pissed at the muslim countries for hating us when they have every right to do so. Keep an open mind with me here. If the roles were reversed, and Mexico actually had some back bone and strength, and they were backed by the gazillions of dollars that the muslim countries have, and they rolled into Texas, New Mexico, and California and took them all back with bloodshed, I seriously doubt you and I would be applauding the muslim states for helping Mexico out.

Simply put, I would like to see peace in the Middle East, and if that means letting these idiots continue to fight until there is one clear winner, so be it. Let's just get the hell out of there and let them finish it up. I was all for the war on terror initially, but this war on terror is getting a little out of hand. Instead of targeting terror cells, we are targeting entire countries and governments. What makes us think that we can take over these countries, install puppet governments, and everything will be okay. If we want to take them over, lets take them over and make them a state. Oh, but that would piss of the rest of the world.

Billy,

Just as you have family in Israel, I am sure that plenty of US citizens also have family in the muslim states.

As far as the comment regarding the Jews and their ability to fight, lets not forget that the Arabs have been fighting just as long and just as hard. They were able to beat back the Crusaders, but then again, those weren't Jews.

I don't have anything against Jews or Muslims, I just want us to get out of the Middle East, become self sufficient in regards to oil, and let those guys go at it. What do we need out of the Middle East other than oil? Do we have a sand shortage that I do not know about? Does Israel have something to offer us that we actually need? Is this going to be another Vietnam or Korea just because we have to support Israel?

I am not against war, and wars need to be fought, and since the war on terrorism there hasn't been any terrorist attacks, but at the end of all this we will be trying to hold all the muslim countries accountable for terrorism and God help us if China gets involved or they get more pissed off at us for our actions in the Middle East. They were pissed initially over the oil issue. Sometimes, wars are started not for land, but for economic resources, and we have a lot of black gold in the Middle East and China needs a lot of it, as do we.

i am flabbergasted.

[Montana Cowboy]

Evening All
I may be all wrong here in my thinking but feel free to straighten me out. War is a necessary evil in many ways. One it keeps the population in check. When a war is going on it creates jobs, ya have to support the war effort, and that means troops have to be transported, food to feed them, medical care for the wounded, clothing for the troops, munitions of all sorts, fuel, maintain all the equipment etc etc. I think you get the picture that somebody is making lots of money.

In the 60's and 70's population control was a big issue and it seemed like a week couldn't go by without hearing or reading about how rapidly the population was increasing and if we didn't do something about it we would self distruct. Wars have a nasty way of taking care of populations, I don't like it, but it's a fact.

Well I hope things get settled over there without another war. They have been going at it for hundreds of years and the only thing that has changed is the weapons have gotten more sophisticated. MC

[Valigator]

Hawkeye6,

NEWSFLASH, you know exactly what I meant....

[fabsroman]

Bad in the middle ages, war was a good form of birth control, but as weapons systems have advanced from the trebuchet to the nuclear missle, so have birth control methods. Hopefully, the population issue could be solved short of war because I would hate to have to give up my life for the sake of reducing the population. I think most people would feel that way.

Billy,

Hope you are only flabergasted and not pissed off. At first I was all for this war against terror, but this September it will have been five years since 9/11 and we are still at war and the wars are probably going to get a lot harder than Afghanistan and Iraq. We might actually have to fight Iran, and something tells me that we will not roll over Iran easily. What happens if China and Russia get into the fray too? Yeah, we are a big country with a lot of technology, but my buddy that flies F-18's told me that after Afghanistan they didn't have any bombs to go against Iraq right away if they had to. Kind of crazy if you ask me.

[fabsroman]

Here is another article:

"RAFAH, Gaza Strip - Militants forced open a border gate between Egypt and Gaza on Friday, wounding an Egyptian officer and letting hundreds of Palestinians who had been trapped on the Egyptian side of the border to get into Gaza.

Armed militants stood by as people carrying suitcases crossed into Gaza. Some walked through on crutches while others walked or ran through the gate.

Egyptian police Capt. Mohammed Abdel Hadi said masked Palestinian militants firing guns broke into the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing, clearing the way for the trapped Gazans.

One Egyptian border policeman was wounded when the militants stormed the frontier, said Abdel Hadi, who heads police on the Egyptian side of Rafah.

The crossing, Gaza's main gateway to the outside world, has largely been closed since June 25, when Palestinian militants carried out a raid on a military outpost, killing two Israeli soldiers and capturing one.

Hundreds of people have been stranded on the Egyptian side, unable to get to their homes in Gaza.

Rafah's closure left hundreds of Palestinians who work and study in Egypt stranded, while preventing hundreds of others from leaving the coastal area to receive medical treatment abroad.

Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza ."

Yea Israel. Over 60 dead palestinian civilians because of a soldier that was captured. Why can't the US go around shooting civilians when its soldiers are captured? Didn't we have an issue like this just recently where one of our soldiers was captured in the same manner as the Israeli soldier?

[Skinny Shooter]

Fabs, you have so many points to rebut I don't have the time or energy to do it at the moment.

This one I will though:

"Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza ."

Why did you add that in bold type. Do you think allowing her into Gaza would have kept her alive? It appears that her cancer was terminal, period. Next thing you know, Cindy Sheehan is going to blame Bush for her cancer...

I continue to find it amazing that the dictators and terrorists of this world consistently get mollycoddled and the good guys get villified when they fight back and make a few mistakes along the way. My heart doesn't bleed for the bad guys.
As GW said, the WOT is going to last a long time.
Unfortunately the "drive-thru" generation just has to have it done and over with right now and not take a second longer.

Go Israel.
Kick a$$ and take names.

[BILLY D.]

fabs

i am a bit ticked, but i am more disappointed. i can not believe you have your cranium soooo deeply inserted up your rectum on this matter.

i'm done.

[PJgunner]

Billy. Way too many people are in that position, IE, their heads in warm dark places.
JMHO, but there is no such thing as a peaceful Muslim, PERIOD! They have no tolerance for any other eligion. You are either Muslim or off with your head.
Many years ago, there were a series of wars call The Crusades. Guess what people. We are in another "crusade", only the idiots running this country are either too damn blind or too damn stupid to see it. I believe it is the latter. The want to fight a politically correct war, and only losers fight politically correct wars. That goes for all the other non-Muslin countries as well. The Muslims perceive us as weak, and dammit, maybe we are. The only real answer is drive them all back into the stone age. Give each and every one his 72 virgins via 10 megaton trip tickets.
Muslims believe that it is no sin to lie to an unbeliever. Peaceful Muslims my aching hemmerhoids!
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

The bold is to show that not only soldiers are being affected by all this crap. Innocent people, terminally ill civilians, that want to die in the comfort of their own home with their family are stuck in the middle. I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes. Does it suck to be a soldier and get killed, yeah, but you at least know your life is on the line because that is your job. Does it really suck to be a civilian and find out that there is a 500 lb bomb on your head. Yeah. If civilian casualties aren't a big thing, how about trying to work out an agreement with Europe, Russia, and China where we develop the neutron bomb, make it in mass quantity, and tell these people to either behave or we will wipe all of them out. I don't care how this ends, I just want it to end. If civilians on one side need to die, then lets kill them all.

I am willing to bet that there isn't one arab or muslim that frequents this board, because I am pretty sure that person wouldn't be reading this thread and thinking GO ISRAEL. If we are going to kill one side, lets kill both sides. Why are the muslims more to blame for what is going on than the Israelis? Please, somebody justify this to me. One of the partners that worked at the last law firm with me taught English in Saudi Arabia before she went to law school. She is about 55 now. Her take on this whole matter was that the muslims had good reasons for disliking Israel and the US. Again, open your thinking caps, be open minded, and try to put yourself in an arab's shoes. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an arab civilian in Beirut.

We have had this argument before. It is always easy to say that we are the good guys and our allies are the good guys and what we and our allies do should not be questioned.

How long did it take to win World War II once we got in there? Pearl Harbor was bombed on 12/7/1941 and the Japanese surrendered in September 1945. Last I checked, it took us less time to beat the Germans, Japanese, and Italians, not that the Italians were much of a fighting force, than it has taken us to end this war on terror. Granted, we lost 400,000+ Americans in that war.

The fight on terror has taken over 4 years at this point. Yeah, it will be long, and yeah I was originally in support of it, but I am also no idiot. Just because I support something initially doesn't mean I cannot change my mind later on as circumstances change. I doubt most people would have thought Israel was going to do this when we started the war on terror.

Now, regarding the Lebanon issue, how do we justify what Israel is doing? Again, lets assume that Mexico had some strength and backbone. Say that some American vigilantes hated Mexico and went in there and killed two soldiers and kidnapped a third. Would it be okay for Mexico to come into the US and bomb our airport, siege a city, and kill 60 US civilians. NO, because that would be happening to us. Is it okay for the US to supply Israel with weapons that kill arabs and then expect the arabs not to hate us. How would you feel if you brother, actual brother, were gun down, but you killed the Israeli that gunned your brother down, took his rifle, and found "Made in the USA" on it?

We just have blinders on. Some of you are old enough to kind of know what the issue is between Israel and Palestine and the rest of the arab nations. Me, I just remember this thing going on as long as I have been alive. WHAT ARE THESE TWO COUNTRIES FIGHTING OVER? Somebody please enlighten me. What was it initially about? Was it land? Was it religion?

Let's either come up with some game plan to end it like we ended the war with Japan (i.e., send everybody back to the stone age) or get the hell out of there. The longer this war against "terrorism" goes on the easier it will get to be a Vietnam and/or Korea. What will happen at the next Presidential election if a Democrat is elected? We will probably pull out and look like chickens. Get the job done and lets move on.

Now, I need to put my headache toward trying to figure out which bicycle frame I am going to purchase.

[fabsroman]

PJ, you snuck a post in there before I hit the submit button. Did the muslim start the Crusades, or was that the Christians trying to take back the "Holy Land" and convert the muslims to christianity. How about the Spanish conquistadors that destroyed entire Indian populations in South America. I think they were trying to convert the natives to Christianity too.

How about the muslims in the United States? Are they all terrible people too? Somehow, I think we are categorizing muslims in general based upon the acts of just a few. Kind of like we categorized the Japanese in the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor. We have some narrow minded people on this board.

This is why the country cannot get along and why it is so divided. Each side, liberal and conservative is so far to one side it is insane. Logic would require us to meet in the middle, but we are so scared to compromise on a single thing for fear that more will be taken away. Kind of like the NRA not wishing to compromise on gun control.

[Montana Cowboy]

Hey Fabsroman
I was just making a point about population control and how war controls it. Take a look at all the third world countries that have huge populations and their governments could care less about birth control cause they don't care about their people to begin with.
I wouldn't want to give my life up either as a population control method but war is one of the tools that third world leaders use as they don't give a rats ass about their citizens.
OK lets get this back on track. The Middle East situation is a mess. Those diaper heads will be at each others throats 100 years from now.
Hope all you folks have a nice weekend. MC