Who is in favor of Israel's actions?

[fabsroman]

I think I have asked this question before, but does anybody know why this hatred between the arabs and the Israelis started? I am trying to figure out who is to blame for this entire mess. That way, we can nuke that side and get rid of the gangrene. We have to do what we have to do. Wonder how the world would react to some tactical nukes in the Middle East.

Another thing that I noticed is that the initial attacks this time were against actual Israeli soldiers. As far as I am concerned, that is a step up for the "terrorists." I bet they call themselves freedom fighters over there. I really want to know why this all started so I can understand a little more about the arabs/muslims ways. For instance, is it okay that they are fighting the way they are because they are in the right and they do not have somebody backing them with high tech weaponry and education? When cornered, you have to do whatever you can to get out of it. For instance, I think of myself as a good guy, but if anarchy were to hit the US, my family was starving or dehydrated, somebody else had food and water but no firearm, and I had the gun, you can bet that the person would be giving up the food and water and/or his life before my family would die. Yet, I hold doors open for people. I am as polite as can be, etc. So, I would love to know why this fight has been going on for so long.

As far as Israeli pilots be the best there is, how many wars have they been in. Last I checked, they weren't in World War II where a lot of planes got shot down. Please don't tell me that their pilots could have been involved in that war and not been shot down at least once. How about Korea or Vietnam. Were they involved in that? How many planes did we lose in Desert Storm or the current war on terrorism? My buddy that flies F-18's said that there was nothing that Afghanistan had that could knock down a plane flying at 15,000 feet or higher. What type of technology do the Israelis fly against. Is it Russian made stuff thrown at them by skilled operators? Does anybody know the answer.

I ask a lot of questions because I like to know exactly what is going on. I did the exact same thing with the wolves thread and ended up changing my mind slightly. Knowledge is power, and following along with blinders on is sheer stupidity.

I guess I would like to start with understanding how this entire mess started. That will get me started. of course, the in-laws are currently driving up from Florida (i.e., spent the entire morning and most of the afternoon cleaning the entire house and going to the dump), but I'll try to do a little research in the meantime.

[fabsroman]

Oh, forgot to answer some of the other questions posed to me. If a plane is full of people and there is a terrorist in control of it, after what happened on 9/11 we pretty much know that those people are already dead, so it is a no brainer to shoot that plane down. Not shooting it down would result in the deaths of the people on the plane along with more casualties from whichever building the bastard flew into. Kind of like cutting poor Billy's arm off.

As far as it being a black and white issue, it isn't unless you know all there is to know and can tell me how everything will effect the world. Something tells me that you do not have those answers. My portfolio has taken a hit to the tune of several thousands of dollars because of this mess. I'll not complain about it if the whole thing is resolved and there is piece in the middle east. Heck, I would be willing to give tens of thousands of dollars to establish a lasting peace in the middle east, but I can afford it. What happens when markets plummet and people's retirement is affected? What happens when gas prices soar and people have to take losses on their SUV's to buy something more economical? Will the rising gas prices cause further inflation, resulting in further increases on the Fed's interest rate resulting in more people not being able to make their mortgage payment and being foreclosed on? I don't have the answers either, but I at least know that there are more issues than just "Go Israel" and "Kill all the terrorists no matter the cost." The world is not a simple place anymore.

A lot of US citizens don't agree 100% with what Bush does, so when he screws up should that be thrown at those people too. I am sure that a lot of these terrorists/militants/freedom fighters are in this thing because of the decades long hatred toward Israel. They were born into this thing, kind of like I was born into the issues in the Middle East.

I agree that all terrorists should be eliminated that intentionally target civilians. However, I have no problem with sneak attacks performed by these terrorists against soldiers. In a lot of warfare, deceit and treachery wins the day. Can you honestly expect these arabs to go toe to toe with Israel. Maybe if the arabs had the technology, this would be more of a stalemate than it currently is because Israel would think twice about moving into arab countries. Then again, it might just be all out war.

[fabsroman]

Okay, it looks like the arabs are the bad guys from the beginning.

"A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

Note that with Judea and Samaria Israel is only 40 miles wide. Thus, Israel can be crossed from the Mediterranean coast to the Eastern border at Jordan river within one hour of driving."

[Rocky Raab]

Fabs, just to completely factual, in the Six-Day War, Israel lost half or more of its planes - but all of them to ground fire. AAA and new Russian-supplied SA-6 missile batteries (a VERY scary missile!) just about wiped them out along the Egyptian border.

So they've lost planes and pilots in combat. But none have ever been shot down by an enemy fighter. In the Bakaa Valley, I think the ratio of kills was something like Syria 0, Israel 248.

For the record, their incredible air-to-air skills were achieved largely (though not completely) in the US-supplied F-15 Eagle. And just to add to the stats, no F-15 Eagle flown by either Israeli or US pilots has ever lost an air-to-air engagement. Score: Them-0, F15- whole damn bunch.

Fabs, I was a combat pilot and I still think like one. It wasn't my job to figure out the politics. It was just my job to beat the other guy and fly home alive. I managed that little chore 300 times - 35 years ago - and I still don't try to figure out the politics.

[Montana Cowboy]

Evening Rocky
Just a heads up. The new F-22 that will be replacing the F-15 Eagle is quite a piece of equipment. In an air to air engagement one F-22 went up against 5 F-15 Eagles and defeated them all. That is incredible. What makes it really incredible is it did it not only once but 5 times in the same day. This was a no holds bard engagement the, F-15 pilots were out to snuff that F-22. The comment from one of the F-15 pilots was "Go out , Get killed, Go to the refueling tanker, , Go back to the fight and get killed again" . The F-22 will carry on the success of the F-15 Eagle. MC

[fabsroman]

Rocky,

Thanks for the info. My buddy said that if he ever went from the Navy to the Air Force, the F-15 is what he would want to fly. He said that it is the only American plane that can accelerate vertically. Don't know if it is the only plane in the world that can do it, but in the US it is. Granted, I think the F-22 has the F-15 beat in that category too. My buddy loves the F-22 and I think he might have even flown it while he was here in Maryland as a test pilot over the last three years. I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him.

As far as politics are concerned, I agree completely with you that a soldier/fighter pilot should never let politics get into the equation. Every time my buddy goes up, I truly hope he is only concentrating on the mission at hand and getting back home safely to his wife and two kids. The politics should be left up to the politicians and people like me with nothing better to do with my spare time. I read a little more about the Israel/Arab conflict, and it looks like the arabs are to blame for most of it, but that information was off a pro Israel board, one that I think was sponsored by Judaism because of the references in the text. So, I am going to look for something a little less bias over the next hour or so before I have to get some sleep. I'll post about it if I find anything significant.

[PJgunner]

There seems to be something missing in this picture.All this concerns not only Israel, but the rest of the non-Muslim world as well. This all started with the First Crusade in 1096 A.D and continued with six more Crusades finally ending in 1314 A.D.
Islam is a religion that WILL NOT allow the existance of any other religion other than Islam. PERIOD!
Look at the infiltration of Muslims in Europe and the British Isles. They blew up a few trains in Spain and Spain bends in fear to their wishes. The blow up a few trains in Britain, and the Brits seem to be cowed to some degree, although nowhere near as much as Spain. Now they blew up some trains in India.
I believe that the term "peaceful Muslim" is not only an oxymoron but an outright lie. It is my understanding that the Koran states that is is no sin to lie to an unbeliever. That it is an homor to kill an unbeliever. If these so-called peaceful Muslims were against the religious fanatics doing all the terrorism, why haven't they said something? Where are all the protests against the terrorists and what they do? By their silence, they condemn themselves.
This is just my opinion, but if the leaders of the non-Muslim countried don't remove their heads from the warm dark places they seem to be keeping them; well we will be/are in deep kim-chi, and that's not a pleasant place to be.
When israel had a few troops kidnapped, they went out and kicked arse and are taking names.
When the terrorist kidnap our boys, torture and behead them, we wring our hands and say, "Woe is me!" Don't humiliate any raghead prisoners. The have rights. BULLCRAP! What rights did the American civilians and soldiers have when that slimey piece of excrement named Zarquawi sawed their heads off with what was apparently a dull knife? Absolutely none.
I have seen one of the videos of Mr. Z sawing the head off what appearred to be a 60 year old man. As far as I am concerned, you can nuke the whole damned Middle East and be done with it. Until you have sat down as watched what was done in the name of Allah, their god, then I feel your opinions don't mean squat. Any excuse like I don't need to see is is nothing more than a cop out. I didn't sleep for two days after seeing that. maybe, instead of the media claiming that it is too graphic for our poor sensibilites, they do their job and show the people exactly what kind of chicken crap types we're dealing with.
The matter of the fact is this, more people have been killed/murdered in the name of religion than for any other cause.
Normally, when I rant about something, I will apologize to those I may have offended. I hope that if I have offended anyone, that they will forgive me for not apologizing this time.
Paul B.

[DogYeller]

As a Lebanese American, FSM Contributing Editor Brigitte Gabriel offers her unique perspective on the continuing conflict in the Middle East and the deadly ideology that would wage war on the West.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org....php?id=165839

[jon lynn]

PJgunner
Living in Germany, I see and talk to Turkish people daily, in fact today, a 3 man-muslam group informed me that the Koran states (just like christians) suicide is a sin. The extrimist are not mayrters, but misguided sinners.

They said you gain the glory of Allah in battle (as in solder vs. solder) not by blowing your self up, but Turkey is a pretty modern country compared to their eastern bordered muslems.

Keep in mind what you wrote is true to some groups. How Alqueda and radical groups pull off the 16-Virgin bluff, is find some of the THOUSANDS who can't read or write, and read them the Koran (blink-blink) their way, then yes every one is an infadel, and should be destroyed.
True muslems do indeed 'look down' on non-muslems as lesser beings. But they (historically) use the lessers as servants. Why wipe out potential laborers.

I my self am weary of the muslem culture I truly admit.

But in ANY CULTURE, when you mix religon in to your politics, (as in the Islamic republic of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ fill in blank) it is gioing to be bastardized and get all out of controll, just like now.

If you brain wash people in thinking they are doing Gods' work, they get weird. Look at Koresch, and Jonestown, even some of us western-wasps fall for the trap. In the mid-east they just took it too far on a large scale.


And on the Mexico invasion I created for my senerio, the answer is ,yes. If you as political body, or party, breech another nations borders, and kidnap citizens, you get what you deserve. I just chose Mexico as an example because of our weak border with them.

But for this Israel thing going on, the PLO types run Gaza, sponsored terrorist are in the parlament in Beirut. THEY KNEW WHAT ISRAELS RESPONCE WOULD BE! I guarentee they were hopeing the 'rest of the muslem world' would ralley.

And here is the clintcher for me. We as Americans should tolerate Israels mistakes, because until I see all those WMD's that caused the invasion of Iraq, I think 2,500+ brave young American solders, marines and airmen & sailors dead, so far has been for absoulutly nothing.

And don't think I am a peacenik, I was in Desert Storm, and in the US Army for 10 years (with a real honest to gosh honorable discharge), and am trying to go reserve.

[Steverino]

The US State department along with the UN and Israel have been pressuring Lebanon for years to turn out the Hezbollah terrorist cells which operate safely within it's borders and receives funding from Syria and Iran. Lebanon's own armed forces have many that are Hezbollah loyalists that will not tow the party line for fear of risking another bloody civil war.

The fact that we STILL do not see the Lebanese government raiding the cities themselves to turn these terrorist ragheads in to me is very telling. They'll continue to whimper and plea for the U.N. and international community to mediate a cease fire but take no responsibility, even as their own cities are being leveled with missles and bombs.

I do feel badly for the poor souls caught in the crossfire and the innocent loss of life but I also cannot believe that the citizens of Lebanon are not taking to arms and dragging their current government through the streets to turn out these terrorist cells operating within their country.

Israel has had enough. I do not support all of what I am seeing and reading but at the same time, I have to admit that I have a small part of me that is admiring the hell out of their response. One way or another, these ragheads are going to get turned-out.

Personally, I'd like to see this same type of response (perhaps more extreme) levied against Syria as well as the foremost terrorist recruiter, supplier, and financier in the world.

People have been putting up with two much crap for far too long. Somebofy else coined it and I have to agree-you haven't seen Japan start any trouble in a long time, have you?

[Skinny Shooter]

Too bad he didn't get his chance...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.a...4-8-2002_pg1_6

8/4/2002
WASHINGTON: Former US President Bill Clinton who many Arab thoughts was more even-handed on the Palestine question than his predecessors shocked many when he asserted in Toronto last week that had Israel been attacked by Iraq or Iran during his presidency, he would have been ready to “grab a rifle, get in a ditch and fight and die.”

A true warrior...

[fabsroman]

Guys, after doing a bunch of reading, I think I will have to side with Israel over the long run, but still have a problem with all the trouble going on right now. If you are going to start this trouble, how about ending it. It truly sucks that this thing has been going on for decades and decades. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the entire Middle East was removed from existence. America would learn how to deal with less oil and we could have some semblance of peace in the world. Of course, I don't think anybody will agree with nuking the place because of the fallout and other consequences, but it would still be nice for it to be gone.

[larryours]

PJgunner, I agree with you.
It gets you to wonder also about the UN, they are condemning Israel, saying Israel is breaking the International law by cutting off Beirut from the rest of the world, however Israel is taking out the access points that Syria and Iran are supplying arms to the Hezbollah/and or Lebonese.
Just like Iraq, the French and Russians were against going in, the main reason was they knew what would be found, weapons made by the French and Russians.(and they are members of the UN)
The UN's credibility and backbone has gone to hell in a handbasket. As far as I'm concerned, Israel has ever right to do what they are doing
Haven't seen UN condemning anyone else, except Israel !
Kind of makes a person wonder, What's wrong with this picture ?
You don't see Lebon hunting down Hezbollah terrorist . So if they are not against them, there's only one other answer They are for them .
As far as the UN goes, if Israel waits for them to act, there would be no Israel left. It's a plain fact, and these surrounding nations and terrorist know, if you mess with Israel, they are coming back at you. It's a standing policy. As the old saying goes, don't punch a sleeping dog, because he WILL bite you. And I think that is what is happening now, Israel didn't start this and they won't back down.

[Skyline]

The UN is in danger of going the way of the Dodo. While the intent of this body is good historically, they have been less than productive in serious situations in the recent past.

Personally I think it is time they get their **** together and actually do something constructive in a serious situation some time in the near future or they will lose what little credibility they have left. There have been a number of situations where their response has been abysmal, if not criminal, and yet no one holds them to task.....................time to make all of those deligates earn their life style and globe trotting!!!

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by jon lynn
We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat.

Israel did what they had to do, I fully support their actions. I do really wish their aim was true in shooting, and could cut down on the non-combatants being killed or injured.

I have read endless books, and watch every documentary over Israel I can. They fought for each and every square inch of that country. I do admit at times they were less than tolerant of some of their arabic neibours, but they live under the constant open threats of muslem nations around them, wishing to wipe them out, for no other reason than the fact they are a Jewish nation. Whom they do not recognize, and still call Israel, Palistine.

Remember when things were going 'kind of good'? And the Israeli Minister went to visit a Mosque, all hell broke loose, and violence spread all through out the country, and suicide bombings went on........................so much for the tolerance of the other side.

And on the Issue of the Palistinians, check on the history of the region, pre-Israel, the arabs who controlled the zones didn't treat the Palistinians like people, the Israelis allow them to apply for Israeli citizenship.

But back to the present, I think Israel will make a huge mistake if they trade a few solders for dozens of terrorist. I hope they don't trade at all. If Hezbollah tries to take them to Iran, they are just asking to get pulverized. I just wonder is Iran stupid enough to back Hezbollah openly, after years of denying it.

But this could get worse, and the US would have no other option, than to help Israel is some way, shape or form. Because IMHO if Israel ever thought they would really and truly lose their country or Jeuresulem, I think they would nuke it them selves, to keep it from falling to the long time enemys.

(as usual please forgive my lousy spelling..........my spell check is in German)

in your last paragraph last sentence you make mention of something important. in reference to that, have you ever read the story about masada? it happened when the jews were fighting the roman empire.