Pet peeves regarding surplus arms

[Gil Martin]

There are a few things that really drive me up the wall when looking for surplus arms. In no specific order, here at my top five:

1. Misidentified military arms. Most gun shops (unless they have a knowledgeable staff) seem to guess at what military arms they have for sale. Common surplus arms are sometimes listed as "rare" with a prohibitive price listed on the hang tag. On the other hand, I have bought a few really rare pieces that were lumped into the "old army rifle" category and sold cheap.

2. Over stated condition. There is a national surplus dealer that probably lists every arm they dell as "excellent" when in fact they fall into the NRA good, NRA fair or NRA poor classifications.

3. Missing parts. I have seen used rifles without parts of the stock, sight hoods gone and what must have been lost internal parts. That will impact the price because finding parts can be a challenge and expensive.

4. Signs of neglect. A great deal of old military ammo is corrosive and if shot requires a proper and thorough cleaning of the bore. I saw a pristine surplus arm before it was sold and the condition several weeks later after it was traded back at the same shop. A mint bore was reduced to what looked like a coal mine. The new owner shot old military ammo and never cleaned the bore because he did not have a cleaning rod or supplies.

5. Attempts at sporterization. Fortunately this form of gun torture to decent surplus arms seems to be waning. However, there are still many examples on the used gun racks. Properly done, surplus arms can become wonderful sporting arms. In too many cases it seems amateur gunsmiths were busy.

Anyone have any peeves they care to list? All the best...
Gil

[ringo]

I look at sporterized milsurps as a cheap source mauser actions. I try to rescue as many as I can, some go back to original condition and some get sporterized. Characteristically, you get a bucked off military stock missing the metal bands, cleaning rod and handguard, usually new sling posts positioned with a modern sling attached. Headspace has never been checked and barrel condition is deplorable. I steer clear of the D&T'd versions as the bolt was probably bent without the benefit of a heat sink or paste and probably hits the scope bell. I rescue the less abused victims, rebarrel, restock and scope them. Most irritating are the attempts at drilling and tapping the receiver with a hand drill, resulting in misaligned holes, use of the wrong size drill, and use of the wrong tap. I had one receiver brought to me with 6 holes drilled in it, a one piece scope mount attached by 1 screw and the other end "glued" with JB Weld. Further insult to injury is the elevated price requested for the attempts at rape and butchery.

[Cobra]

Every now and then I come across one that is a good looking example but somewhere along the line a weak attept was made to have all the pieces have matching numbers. Degrading and deceptive way to try and get an extra 5-10%.

[Adam Helmer]

Gil,

Excellent post!

I would say the two most obvious problems are mis-stating the condition and mis-identification of the arm which usually moves the military surplus arms to the "Collector Grade" category with resultant price jacked WAY UP!

Adam

[gumpokc]

Agreed, misidentified, if not outright misrepresented firearms are the biggest pet peeve i see.

and it isnt all milsurp, been seeing alot of the trench shotguns, and lever 12 guages from china being represented as "original" trenchguns, or texas ranger specials.

At a recent gunshow i even saw a display only fully cast lemat, being passed off as a "real" lemat cav revolver that had been made unfireable since it was "not legal to own any handgun that had both shotgun and pistol bullets in one frame" .
Show security and some police had a talk with slickwilly there, didnt see what happened, but i didnt see him in the show after that.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm this business about getting the headspace checked you know of all the various old rifles I have had through my hands and those of friends I have yet to know of one which unless had the wrong bolt in it, that required checking. Either American shooter totally abuse rifle so it puts the head space out or it's another example of over kill. It's true that most ex-military arms have at least been proofed fairly recently or at least in the last 20 years as it's an offence under law to sell or offer for sale an arm out of proof or unprooved. Military proof does not count either.

[Gil Martin]

Headspace has to be pretty bad to seriously affect a rifle and may not put it out of action. The local gunsmith showed me a shotgun that had 38/1000s headspace and was used several times a month in cowboy action shoots. While I suspect that most surplus military arms are checked by tyeing a rifle down and pulling the trigger with a string. The same headspace concerns may be said of lever action deer rifles that seem to develop excessive headspace and continue to be pressed into use year after year. Looking a empty cases will often disclose how bad headspace may be.

Finally, if a rifle was checked decades ago, that reading may not be valid today. All the best...
Gil

[Brithunter]

Well my current collection includes well use examples like the DWM Boer M93 Plezier which despite what our BATF says was made and delivered in about 1896 and I recently sold a M93 rifle OVS marked and a Carbine all M93's which of course are the weaker Mauser action all made prior to 1897. The rifles do not have a headspace problem, another is an 1893 Steyr Mdl 1892 made in 1893, OK this one has not had a lot of use but again no problems with headspace.

Like wise the AC11 Martini .303, this one was prooed in 1999 as it had no commercial proofs so had to be proofed before I could buy it from the dealer. It had been found standing in the corner of a basement after the owner in a drunken moment jump off a railway bridge into the path of a train .

I have heard of one dealer who specialises in Enfields who checks headspace and adjusts them to as close to minimum as possible before testing them for accuracy. He shoots all his stock so he can honestly say how them perform on the range.

Using normal ammunition of the correct pressure for the arm causes no problems it's the "expert" who improves upon the loads and has to have it all at Max which normally causes the problems.

Like I say none of my rifles show any signs of headspace problems. Now shotguns are a different kettle of fish entirely due to their design and lock up, side by sides this is of course. here in the UK there are loads of old SxS shotguns made during the very early period of their development but even then I do not hear of many being badley out of spec. Again handloading could be the problem as here in the UK very few people handload fo shotguns, it's just not worth it. These old guns often have the 2 1/2" chambers some may still have the original 2" 12 Bore chambering. Now 2 1/2" chambers is no problem as all shops carry cartridge suitable for them at good prices and I suppose that due to this folks don't seem to feel the need for high pressure high velocity magnum type loads in their old guns. If I want to shoot goose then I break out a baikel O/U which has 2 3/4" chambers and chromed barrels and use a load suitable for the quarry. Due to newish legislation we now have to use non toxic shot for waterfowl even I land and not over water like stubble fields which earlier had been shot over for Pigeon using normal lead shot My old 1909 Cogswell probably the barrels could not take non toxic shot and I am certainly not going to risk even this cheap gun finding out, so i sue a more modern one instead.

SxS's can quite easily be checked by the owners by hold the action with barrels fitted up to a strong light and looking for the gap, it can also be checked using a ciggerette paper and the gun can be re-tightened on the face by a compentant gunsmith.