22 people gunned down at Virginia Tech

[jl1966]

I live in Roanoke Va., 15 min. from Virginia Tech. Many of my family members went there. I am mad. Mad that a great school of engineering and agriculture will be forever linked with this. Mad that the dirty outside world has intruded into my little mountain world of peace. Mad at the idiots I see on CNN and MSNBC talking about something they know nothing about, Bill Oreilly or Rosie Odonnell or Sarah Brady, all idiots. The officials at VT did what they thought was best at the time. We will have all of the rest of time to second guess them. Things like this don't happen here. The cell phone video they keep showing with the gunshots? I walked right through that exact place several times back in the fall at the VT game against Georgia Tech. The killer had a Glock 9mm and a walther .22 pistol he bought at Roanoke Firearms. I have been in that place a million times, drive by it everyday on my way to work. How does this happen? I met my wife for lunch Monday. As I was getting out of the truck an ambulance was going by. I paid little attention. My wife arrived crying, seems the ambulance was one from Blacksburg, bringing someone to a Roanoke because we have a level 1 trauma center, Blacksburg does not. We had a gun show in Roanoke last Saturday. I went of course. Was the killer there, buying ammo to do this? How do we prevent this? I watch the news and they are talking about my backyard, not because the Hokies won another ballgame, but because of this. How?

[fabsroman]

Preventing mass violence by a lunatic is tough. If not with a gun, why not a bomb, why not a car, why not an ax, why not a knife, why not a chainsaw. If the guy chained in his victims, how would we have prevented any of this?

The simple answer would have been if everybody in that class room had been carrying a gun. However, would it lead to more violence if everybody had a gun on them? Would people be more likely to shoot somebody in a moment of rage.

Last week, we had a road rage incident right by me. A guy in a pickup and two ladies in a civic got into it on I-270. They were weaving in and out of traffic and giving one another rude gestures. The guy in the pickup finally got in front of the civic, slammed on the brakes, and the civic veered to miss the pickup. The civic went off the road and both women were killed. I believe they were young too. So, how do we stop this?

About a month ago, I was out riding my bike in the area, about 15 miles from home and there were ambulances and fire trucks everywhere. Got home to listen to the news and found out that a man hanged his three kids and himself from a tree because his wife wanted to leave him. How is that any different than this moron at VT? The only difference is that the guy at VT killed more people and used a gun instead of a rope.

As long as we have crazy people that do not value life, we will have things like this happen. Stopping something like this from ever happening again would require a crystal ball.

I am in a great mood today because my baby daughter was born and both she and my wife are doing great. I am pissed off because I was forced to leave the hospital when I would have preferred to spend the night there with both of them. I am even more pissed off at my wife's roommate who gave birth to a baby boy the night before. She is 16. Her parents were there and she was asking them how much a house costs in this area (her parents' response $600,000), how much a car costs (her parents' response $20,000), and how much a cell phone costs (her parents' response $100). Found out that this girl doesn't even have her driver's license. Now, while her parents were there, they mentioned that they will have to stop cussing around the baby so that he will grow up right. This girl blamed her friends for all the cussing. The minute her parents left, this girl was cussing like a sailor and my wife, my daughter, my in-laws, and I were in the room subjected to it. If she wasn't leaving first thing in the morning, I would have been very tempted to ask for a private room and pay the difference myself. Now, what is wrong with this picture. I can go on all night about this girl, but I want to post something about my daughter's birth before I have to get to sleep so that I can get back to the hospital when visiting hours start at 8:00 am.

[jl1966]

The thing about all of this is, yes if there had been an armed student or faculty member present, the outcome may have been less horrific. However, the killer purchased his weapons legally, he had his green card, produced three forms of I.D., legal as anything. He had been handled by the VT police twice, in Nov. and Dec. of 2005 upon reports of annoying behavior towards a couple of female students. He had a history among his fellow students of wierd behavior. He had expressed thoughts of suicide. He had been voluntarily admitted to a mental health facility for two days in Dec. 2005. Why did this not show up? the gun control groups always go on about "common sense gun laws", we all know what that is about. Maybe we as gun owners need to get behind some real common sense reforms in gun laws. Again, the question is, how? How do you not prevent a law abiding citizen from owning a gun, yet stop that same citizen, if he acts wierd or shows signs of mental oddities, from owning that same gun. This guy had a clean record, he was not hauled off to a rubber room by the cops, he was voluntarily admitted for treatment.

[Lilred]

To answer the green card question, it is legal to buy a gun if you are "legal resident of the United States."
He is that...and that applies in any state.
Here's the difference Allen. In Virginia, if you are a convicted felon, you cannot own a gun. I think it's that way everywhere. The difference is: it don't take two blinks of an eye and you are a convited felon in the state of VA. Dui's are rampant here, not just because we have a bunch of drunks here. Our achohol blood level content that qualifies you for a DUI is LOW. If you don't pay your child support, let your kid miss 14 days from school, file a false police report..just to name a few...you lose your right to own a gun.. ANY gun.

My steadfastness does waver on green card folks...but if the federal government let's them in, thinks they should be allowed here and whatever...then I would think it would be ok for a decent law-abiding "citizen" to own a gun.
That fool would have shot em, blew em up...whatever he could have done, guns are not to blame.
Common sense in gun laws?? Naw honey...common sense period needs to be applied. But look at it this way...so the guy was half-cocked...tell me..legally...what could the college have done??
What about all the vietnam vets or armed forces that were mentally destroyed? Are they a ticking time bomb walkin our streets? Maybe..maybe not...but why should we let the federal or state government regulate what we do with unstable people??
Unless those people have proven criminally that they are a danger to themselves and others, you can do nothing. The college can do nothing.

Common sense...you are a law-abiding person..you get a gun..you aint...you dont get a gun. That will never change unless they take away the second amendment and our guns cause any law-abiding citizen can go out and do what he did.

[GoodOlBoy]

I just got back from a buisness trip so forgive me if this is brief or sounds a bit abrupt. I will post more tomorrow when I am a little more clear headed.

1st Believe it not a 2 hour time from the time of the first shooting to the time of notification is STAGGERINGLY good. Look at the steps involved. Somebody is shot. Police are called. Police arrive. Police for a suspect. Police apprehend and question suspect. Police find that suspect is NOT the shooter. Police notify campus. Think about it. I seriously doubt MOST PDs would have responded that well.

2nd The shooter did not carry the guns in the open waveing them, did not hold a flag saying "hello my name is bob I am a madman going to another building to shoot somebody" while he walked across campus. He hid the gun. He walked. You cannot stop ALL foot traffic an search them with 26k+ students etc. PARTICULARLY when you don't have a good description on the subject. remeber three hours later at the press conference they still were not POSTIVE that he was the shooter in the FIRST incident.

3rd When the police arrived they IMMEDIATELY entered the building. THIS is why the shooter took his own life at this time. The Police where there, and where comming in.

4th Two male students held doors closed on a classroom AFTER he shot people and came back using their feet, and alot of guts. So far I have heard very little about anybody else doing jack, INCLUDING all those student supposedly packin.

5th It is so easy to criticise what the police did wrong and right. It is so easy to talk about magazine capacity, easy of gun access, and mental problems. But in the end THIS PERSON did this. Not his gun.

6th Utah has already passed a bill in the last few years allowing a valid CCW owner to carry on a college campus. How many people would have died if there had been one, two, or any number of CCW carries armed in that building.

It is a different world we live in today than our parents and grandparents days. Today you must defend yourself. Today you must protect yourself. And above all today we all have to watch each others backs. If the liberal media and those like them suceed in their plans then we are all nothing but a bunch of victims waiting for our turn in front of the bullet, the bat, or the knife. And guess what. You STILL can't blame the bullet, the bat, or the knife. The Police are there to enforce the law, to protect the public trust, and to help when and where they can. But being that I work for a University Police Department I wonder how many people out there realize just how few armed police are employeed by Universities.

Another thought before I go. IF the campus HAD been able to automatically lock down the building remotely as I heard one suggestion already today. What would have happened to the REST of the people in that building? You just locked a mass murderer in with them.

By the way the toll. 2 dead in the residence hall. 31 dead in the academic building (including the shooter) 28 wounded, 4 of those in critical condition upon last report. High capacity? In the amount of time it took him to do what he did it could have been done with a standard revolver. He didn't spray the areas. He purposfully and maliciously shot people.

Makes you think doesn't it?

GoodOlBoy - More to come when I am coherent.

[fabsroman]

GOB,

Good post for not being coherent. The only thing I disagree with is that I have heard the police did not enter immediately upon arriving on the scene. That is, officers arrived and waited for back up. Honestly, if there is gunfire, I think it is the officer's duty to get into the fray, whether it is one officer, two, five, or twenty, so that the officer can do whatever he/she can to save any lives of unarmed civilians. That is my only issue. If the evidence shows that the first officer arriving on the scene entered the building and tried to confront the shooter, then I think everything was handled correctly. If the evidence shows that the first officer came upon the scene and waited for backup, then I think there is a serious problem. If 2 or more officers were waiting for backup, the problem is even worse. They are the ones that are allowed to carry guns. They are the ones we none carrying people rely on. When the officers are scared for their own lives when they come upon a gun fight, there is a serious problem, especially since they have the firepower and the training, whereas the students were mere sheep, with the exception of the kids that baracaded the door and the professor that sacrificed his life to save his students by baracading a door with his body.

Ultimately, the perp should have died with 10 LEO bullets in him, not with one from his own gun. Then again, if he had 10 LEO bullets in him there would probably be a lawsuit like the one in New York where 4 black men were shot up pretty good and they weren't even armed. Trust in law enforcement is getting much worse.

Violence is just too prevalent in today's society. Probably has something to do with TV, video games, and media reporting.

[GoodOlBoy]

WOOT SLEEP ROCKS!

Anyway. Fabs the only thing I have to go by is video I was seeing on several of the news channels, and reports we have gotten back (paper reports we have not gotten to review the first responders video yet as every college PD in the country is trying to get ahold of it) The first LEO's to arrive were heard by those inside (including the shooter) and attempted access shortly thereafter. The shooter actually took his own life at this point (remember some of the doors had been chained shut at this point) Even if the officers had arrived and did wait for backup before entering I could not say that I would have blamed them. With the amount of gunfire in the building and NO reliable reports from the inside they could easily have been walking into half a dozen people instead of one. If that had been the case how could the officers being slaughtered help those inside? It could not have. Yes it is their job to put their life on the line, BUT it is their job to do so in such a manner that it saves others. NOT just be cannon fodder.

In all things considered I think the VT Police department did an excellent job with what they had to work with. We can sit back an analyze this for years to come (and believe me it will be) However colleges are not military bases. They are not closed to the public. You cannot carry a weapon concealed or otherwise on your person on one. There are no metal detectors because there are no centralized points of access. There are not guards standing around at every entrance and exit. It is a school. Period. This IS a tragedy. But perhaps some good will come of it. Perhaps this will become a wake up call for millions of Americans. Or perhaps, as in the past, they will blame the gun. Blame the bullet. Blame the gunshop, and blame the state. They certainly won't blame the poor mentally derranged piece of garbage that DID the deed. After all if he hadn't been picked at in kindergarten, denied ice cream in junior high, and had his parts laughed at by a girl in high school this never would have happened right? RIGHT? Yeah right.

Whatever the reason to do such a thing it was done. How many would have died had he simply used a chainsaw? How many would have died if he used a knife, a bat, a brick? Every day in this country thousands of assaults are commited. People are murdered. Lifes are destroyed. And guess what? Guns are used in alot less of these cases than people believe. Recently a man was dragged to death behind a car by his extranged wife. Did the news focus on the car? Did they focus on the wife? Did they focus on the rope she tied him to the bumper with? Did they EVEN focus on the fact that this abusive SOB beat her regularly? No they mentioned pointedly that there was a gun found in the glove box when she was caught. A gun HE had kept in his car. A gun SHE didn't know was there. An HOUR long local report on the news focused on the gun and the ease of getting such a gun in todays society. She never once held him at gunpoint, or even threatened him with one. She cold cocked him with a brick from the edge of her flower bed and dragged him to death behind the car.

More to come I just got called out of office for a tech problem in dispatch.

GoodOlBoy

[Lilred]

I just wanted ya'll to know that Virginia is officailly the gun-runnin capital of the US...I'm so proud I think I'm gonna cry

[GoodOlBoy]

OK Back to the buisness at hand.

It is my FIRM belief that in the end the antigunners will find a way to blame the guns, the ammo, anything but the shooter. They will make him out to be the victim, and will try to use leverage to try to do more damage to gunowners.

The real solution? The only real solution is to arm all those who CAN be legally armed. My paper work has been sent in for my CCW and you better believe that as soon as it comes back I am taking the class, and starting to carry. Yes while at work I have to leave it in the vehicle, BUT at least it will be where I can get to it. IF and when Texas passes the law as Utah did that you can carry CCW on a college campus with a license you can bet I won't ever be unarmed again. If ANY single professor or student in those classrooms had been armed do you think that as many would have died? I doubt it.

It is time to wake up and smell the coffee folks. We have rampant terrorism in the world today. We have school shootings on a semi-regular basis. We have rapes, robberies, murders, and a continuous list of heinous and despicable crimes. EACH AND EVERY TIME we wonder why the police didn't respond sooner (Take a look sometime at how many police per capita there is around and you will find a big part of that answer). Why the bad guy had a weapon (I'm sorry it isn't politically correct to say bad guy is it? He is just a confused mentally ill person)? Why didn't somebody realize this nutcase had problems, or why didn't those who knew he had problems report it? Instead of trying to fix the unfixable why don't we do what we should have done in the first place? We defend ourselves. We defend our family. We defend our personal property. And we defend those who can't defend themselves. THAT is what I was taught was to be a man when I was growing up. When did that die?

The answer is it didn't. In the John Wayne movie McClintock O'hara's character says something on the lines of "I dred these changing times." The daughters response was "It isn't the times that are changing momma."

In the end THAT is what is the truth. Times are not changing people are. That bad are getting badder, and the sheep are getting deader (If that is a word). Defend yourselves. Because you can be damned sure nobody else is going to.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

GOB,

Regarding the police not entering the situation immediately without knowing what the situation is, I completely disagree. Even if there are 12 gunmen in that building, they should go in immediately. Otherwise, the gunmen are left to slaughter the sheep at will. What is the difference if a police officer dies or a student dies? It is still a dead person. The difference is that it is the LEO's job to put his life on the line. If a police officer goes in and distracts 12 gunmen for 5 minutes, it can save lives and it allows additional backup to arrive.

Now, I am not saying the LEO should go in naked. The LEO has a weapon, he probably has a vest on, and he has training. The other people in the building have a wood door, and if smart enough, a desk, and if lucky enough, a professor to shield them from the gunman. If the gunman gains access to a room, they have nothing to fight back with that would be of substantial use. Granted, if they all rushed the guy at once, they might have been able to subdue him, but how many of us are that brave.

If an officer sticks his head into a doorway and he sees 12 gunmen in the room, I am not saying that he should run into the room and try to dispatch all of them. However, he should make sure that they remain in that room and that the only casualties will be the ones in that room.

I got to look at a short video clip last night that showed some LEO's responding to the scene. However, it started with 5 or so LEO's rushing toward the building, so I have no idea how long they had been standing around listening to the gun shots. I heard 4 or 5 gunshots while the LEO's got ready to rush the building.

Time will tell whether or not the LEO's did what they should have done. Yes, it sucks when an LEO dies, but it sucks even more if a civilian dies because an LEO doesn't want to put his life on the line. Again, maybe this isn't the case, but we will need time to evaluate all the evidence.

I wonder if the gunman was down to his last bullet and he used it on himself, or if he really killed himself because he saw the police coming.

[GoodOlBoy]

Fabs the reason I mentioned it like I did is because of limited LEO presence on a campus. If you have three cars with 4 LEOs on patrol. You get a report of gunshots fired and one LEO makes it there a full five minutes before the second and rushes in. Bang he's dead. The second arrives and rushes in. Bang he's dead. The last two arrive in one car two minutes later and rush in. They MIGHT have a chance being that there are two of them. They WOULD have had a chance had there been four. Assuming these two don't make it then you now have four dead LEOs and more dead victims with City/State/County on the way (Often an hour or more away from the call). You might not have needed City/State/County had you simply waited for #2-#4 to arrive and moved in together. Now instead of an 8 minute wait to a four man team who could have done the job you have 30 minutes or more for the bad guy to finish up what he wants to do. You are always tactical disadvantage when you are the one attacking, not defending. That being said if they KNEW there was one person, and they KNEW where he was, and they HAD a visual it would be a different story. Then there is NO reason for one man not to move to get a kill shot. I know it is a LEOs job to put their life on the line. Believe me I know. You know what is curious though? In an enviroment like a college campus the only person with worse pay that the LEOs is usually the janitor. LEOs who put their life on the line daily, like our boys and girls in the military, are paid piss poor. They have piss poor benefits, and it is expected for them to throw out their chest and charge guns blazing into the fray. Not an excuse for them not to try just point out how unappreciated they are.

Tactics are tactics. It is not to the advantage of the officers or the victims for the officers to get killed to no avail and leave the bad guys to go back to slaughtering the sheep.

My understanding is that there was spare ammo when he was found dead. I don't know for certain I have not read that part of the report yet.

My 2 cents.

GoodOlBoy

[multibeard]

I talked with my brother his afternoon. His grandaughters husband was supposed to be in class in the building that morning.

Thankfully, for some reason he did not go to class.

[jl1966]

I agree with GOB, from all reports I have seen the cops arrived, found the doors chained, breached them, entered the building, and found the gunman dead by his own gun. This is not to say that the very first LEO to arrive went in with guns blazing. We all, even as civilians, if we ever give thought to how we would react to a home invasion or armed attack, plan to use some kind of rudimentary tactical plan. I haven't been in the gunshop where the 9mm was purchased since the shootings, wife said she has been by there a couple of times and the parking lot was packed. She said there was an asian news crew out front the other day. I will be going by there during daylight hours today so I can check it out. Today is Hokie pride day, so wear your maroon and orange! There will surely be a lot of second guessing about this, the police reaction, the VT security plans, so forth.

[fabsroman]

GOB,

I have been to the Virginia Tech campus and Roanoke too. They are almost one and the same. I cannot believe that there are only 4 police offcers on duty at a time at the campus, but I guess that could be possible. I also cannot believe that it would take city, county, and state another 30 minutes to respond. Last but not least, I am not saying that a single officer should "rush" in. The single officer should make a serious attempt at evaluating the situation and taking action. I am not saying that the officer should run through the front doors and pray that the gun man is not there with a loaded bazooka waiting for him. In the video I saw, you could hear gun fire, which was the gunmans. A LEO should be able to tell if that gun fire is close or far and should be able to systematically make his way, at a somewhat safe pace but a pace that also acknowledges that unarmed, unarmored civilians are being killed. Again, the LEO has a weapon and armor most likely, so the shooter would have to be pretty good to kill the LEO. Honestly, I am not going to shed a tear if an LEO gets shot in the leg or the arm, or some other place that is not a vital area, so long as he kills the gunman. On the flip side, I have seen how poorly some LEO's can shoot, so I guess some might be really apprehensive about going into this type of situation.

What really astounds me about LEO's is that they can be completely out of shape and barely even proficient with a weapon, yet they are who we need to rely on for our safety and our children's safety. That is what really irks me.

On top of that, I have heard that there was a meeting being held by the University President, some of the University higher ups, and the University's attorney regarding what action to take regarding the first shooting, when the second shooting began. Yep, you have to love the red tape.

At this point, I just want to know what the schools and the government are going to do to make sure that this doesn't happen again. I really do not care about who is at fault, but then again, I am not a parent of one of the dead students.

[GoodOlBoy]

Fabs I am not saying that VT has only four on duty at a time I was giving that as an example. As for how long it takes an officer to arrive take a look at national averages per city per capita sometime. With traffic, etc in a town the size of ours it takes approximately 35 minutes for an officer to arrive at the scene of a crime in the city. On campus our officers will head to the scene and usually make it in 9 to 14 minutes. But then again there are not streets THROUGH our campus. They have to drive to a closest point and walk (or run) the rest of the way. In emergencies they have the go ahead to jump the curb SO LONG AS it isn't covered in students (as it is from 8am to 5pm M-F CST)

I agree that an officer is there to put their lives on the line. My comment about benefits and pay was to point out that we should be grateful for ANYTHING we get from then going by what we pay them.

Example: A recent ad for a Sheriff in a nearby town offered $28k a year plus benefits, with NO overtime. You get comp time instead. Normally Sheriff's are an elected position around here, but nobody would take the job for the money. IE you never get time off, you do accrue it, but you lose it. That is about what our area is like. City police start out at more in BIG cities like Houston etc, but not in the small cities and towns are here.

GoodOlBoy