Pistol for new job????

[Tall Shadow]

While I also would HIGHLY recommend something in a caliber starting in .4x, I wouldn't bet my life (or anyone else's) on any clothing stopping a 9mm....short of a ballistic vest.

(For a good bit of "real World" testing, look up "The Box-O-Truth" website...you will be very glad you did.)

I would go with whatever you feel most comfortable with/have the most training, and Practice! with.

Tall Shadow

[Esox357]

The 9mm not penetrating? I disagree. The 9mm with a 147 tends to overpenetrate! The section density of the 9mm allows it to penetrate like crazy. The 9mm has killed plenty of people and was designed for that. Gold Dot, Golden Saber both work fine. I would use the 115 or 124's. Esox357.

[GoodOlBoy]

Disagree all you want then go read the FBI tests, the Texas Highway Patrol tests, the California Highway patrol tests, and just about everybody else who is going AWAY from the 9mm because of the lack of penetration. Also keep in mind I am talking about barrier and heavy clothing penetration, not shooting through some naked psycho with ball ammo.

And no the 9mm was not designed to kill people. It was designed to create one heck of a wound channel. The original intent of going to the 9mm instead of the 45 acp was that the 45 acp was a killing round which should not be carried by a "peackeeping" force.

Don't listen to the BS. Read your history.

Does that mean the 9mm is not valid particularly as a self defense round? Heck no. It is MUCH better than nothing. And it performs well against unarmored, thin clothed targets, particularly with HPs. Does that mean I would carry one as a cop OR an armoured car driver. In a word NO. By the way the Gold Dot/Golden Saber comment show JUST what I am talking about. HPs do NOT perform as barrier penetration unless designed to do so (Such as the Golden Saber Bonded POLICE version ammo. Not the civilian bonded version.)

Anyway as I was saying that is the reason most officers are begning to carry 40s, 357 sigs, or even going back to the 45 acp. Myself if the department was buying ammo and cost wasn't an object and I HAD to carry an automatic then I would lean towards the 357 sig. And thats sad because I am a 45 fanatic.

Personally I like revolvers better than automatics, but thats just my choice. A good 357 with a 158 grain semi jacketed Soft point does one heck of a job through a car window or roof, and even through modern doors on houses. (houses over 20 years old have a decent chance of having a solid core oak door. Good luck if you have to shoot a bad guy through one and you are armed with a pistol.)

GoodOlBoy

[Esox357]

The 9mm was designed to kill, the germans wanted a more powerful round hence the 9mm Luger design. Early 90's the 9mm had expasion problems but new ammuntion advances has put the 9mm pretty close to the other rounds and all will do the job with proper shot placement.
The 9mm will penetrate. It will go through drywall, car doors, windshield glass ect. All barriers are hard on bullets. Bonded is the new craze and helps, but gold dots were the original bonded bullet before the other manufactures jumped on board.
The 9mm is a good beginner round. Low recoil, cheaper to shoot, faster follow up shots, accurate, and deadly as anything else. I have yet to meet anyone that would let me shoot them with a 9mm because it is ineffective.
I personally carry a .40 caliber but that is due to my agency. I like both rounds but realize for someone new to the .40 can be a handful in the recoil deparment. Most of the newbies don't qualify as high if they had been shooting the 9mm. I like it but a 9mm would work as well for me.
The FBI tests I wouldn't put alot of faith in. The others I would have to look at. The 357 sig is a 9mm just at faster speeds, basically a 9mm on steroids. For the armored car job the 9mm would be sufficient. Esox357.

[GoodOlBoy]

True the germans did invent the 9mm, but again it was not the round it was touted to be. I should have stated that the peackeeping statement had to do with it replacing the 45 auto during the vietnam war. Ballistically the 9mm looks great on paper. But then again so does a 38 special. As for 40 S&W recoil thats bull. If you have a 40 that is recoiling badly you have a problem gun the 40 does not noticeably recoil harder than the 9mm which does not recoil that much harder than the 380 auto. Does the 9mm have a place. YESSSS. So does the 38 (I carry a 38 special)

The question was asked what gun to carry as an armoured car driver. To hang onto the 9mm like a tick on a dog because it is a popular round is completely stupid, and it took Texas Highway Patrol, the FBI, and California Highway patrol more than 10 years to finally realize it. For civilian carry there is not, I repeat not a thing wrong with the 9mm. I have shot, and considered buying both a 9mm torkarev (yes I know it is a different round) and a Ruger 9mm that I fell in love with a buddy had. I DIDN'T buy then because I had NO practical reason to downgrade what I was carrying (At the time a milspec 1911A1 45 ACP)

In my opinion a revolver is MUCH more practical for a driver. Carry a few speed loaders there you go. Ease of one handed operation, lack of confusion when operating the firearm, etc etc etc.

The 9mm DOES NOT DO WELL Penetrating vehicles. I have been at the range when we had this argument when we banned them here, and we went to the range with an old car (donated) and shot the heck out of it to see for ourselves. Not counting direct hits on a frame or the engine block 9mms did NOT penetrate reliably EVERY time (6 out of 10 on average, side windows it did well on, rear glass and windshield it did ok, doors. . . . . 7 failures to penetrate out of 10 shots). 40's penetrated 9 times out of 10 on average. 45 acps penetrated EVERY TIME. 357 mag penetrated every time, 44 mag penetrated all but once, and it was an OBVIOUS low powder load (Everybody at the range knew it as soon as the trigger was pulled), 38 special was not quite as well on penetration as 9mm, and 380. . . . we won't go into 380 its just sad. We banned 9mms and 38s on anything but backup guns, 380s are banned altogether. We had one officer bring out a 357 sig. He declined to shoot SIMPLY because we didn't have spare ammo for it at the time and he didn't want to burn up his personal ammo (don't blame him)

We can argue this all day, and some web pages have thousands of pages of this argument. But I have SEEN it done, it is not something I would put MY life on. Period.

My 2 cents (And I'm done)

EDITED TO ADD: The Germans as well as the Japanese perscribbed to the wounding theory of battle by the way. One man dead is one man dead. One man wounded is one wounded and two to carry him away. The Koreans later tried this same tactic in the Korean War. Not to say that this was why they invented the 9mm, far from it. Just saying.

GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

Folks, I really don't wanna get into this argument, but I will say one thing.
Comparing military usages of cartridges, where FMJ's are required, and civilian applications, where expanding bullets are common, is like comparing apples to airplanes.
Pistol cartridges tested with expanding bullets should be compared to pistol cartridges tested with expanding bullets.
Pistol cartridges tested with FMJ's should be compared ONLY to other tests with FMJ's.
The situations of expected use and outcome of the two different categories is totally different.

[Esox357]

GoodOlBoy, It makes the thread interesting at least! You have your experiences and I have mine thats what is nice about sharing the info. I am not arguing with you just having a conversation. I don't know how much penetration one would need I have heard everything from 12" to 18" which seems excessive maybe a middle ground? I might think that the agencies you listed may have needed to switch ammuntion not the caliber.
The .40 is not hard to control on recoil but to a new person that does not shoot much it is snappier for sure. Regards. Esox357

[GoodOlBoy]

Good point Jack.

Esox it has been interesting. I have heard those measurements as well. I have never seen a single company be able to actually demonstrate them in a live enviroment (and believe me several of them tried to demonstrate it for us)

GoodOlBoy

[Esox357]

Yep GoodOlBoy, they are hard to achieve with a handgun caliber,
see you on the next thread. :0) Take Care Esox357..

[PJgunner]

Well, getting back to the subject at hand, if a revolver, I'd go with either the S&W 686 First choice) and the Ruger GP-100 as second choice. I believe the S&W will have a better trigger that the Ruger which should make it easier to shoot. (I've had both and the Ruger was the firt to go. The 686 4" was sold very freluctantly as I shot it well, but mioney was needed. I miss that gun.
As to the semiautos, my first choice ain't there. The good old 1911A1. So, looking at what you have to work with, my first choice would be the SIG. I have a P-220 in .45 ACP and it's a real sweethert. I also have three very expensive custom 1911s and the SIG will not only shoot right along with them, but sometimes outshoot them. The Ruger P-85 I have shoots very well, is accurate enough, but doggone it, it feels like a brick in my hand. I ahven't played with any of the smaller and lighter Ruger so won't comment on them.
I like the 9mm and my night stand gun is an S&W 6906 loaded with 115 gr, Standard Federal HP's. (9BP) Still, Ialso have a 12 ga. shotgun under the bed loaded with alternating 00 and #4 buckshot, 8 rounds to be exact.
However, while I am prepared to repel boarders, I'm not in a job that requires being armed for my personal safety while performing my job.
My choice would be either the SIG or if they're on the list the Beretta in .40 caliber. Bigger holes let out more blood and let in more cold air, and that's what you need should, Gog forbid that you would have to shoot.
So why the 9 as a night stand gun. because my wife has too much trouble with the .45's recoil. Either the Colt Combat Commander or the P-220 are right close at hand for my use.
Here in Tucson, we don't worry too much about winter clothing for at least 10 or 11 months out of the year.
Go either .357 mag. or .40 S&W. I'd pick either one given the choices at hand.
Paul B.

[PaulS]

If you have to carry then I would also recommend the largest diameter bullet you can accurately handle. I prefer the wheel guns that Ruger makes - the trigger can be a little rough and a might hard BUT it can be fixed with a little work and I have personally fired over 10000 rounds through my Ruger and it still prints well. I know of Smiths that have been shot out with half that many rounds. I think the 357 is an excelent round for LE use. If you look at the velocity and bullet weight data you will find that 9mm and 38spl+p are so close as to be identical in ballistics. Not my favorite round but some like it. The 45s would also be an excellent choice. I never learned to trust an auto but some do so I guess it is personal preference.
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