Detroit Bail-out

[Nulle]

Short and Sweet = NO

[RagingBullPa]

i voted yes , something has to be done with the economy , the obama led democrats have talked the talk now walk the walk and do something the democrats have had control of congress and the senate since 2006 get them off their butts and lets bring back america

[fabsroman]

GOB,

Your reference to the Green Algae in the processor does not support your claim that technology is being held back so that they can bleed money out of us. You specifically state that they didn't pursue that technology because too many Christians complained about it. Sometimes, businesses actually have to listen to their customers. Kind of like the entire Zumbo matter when he said something bad about black rifles.

Justwannano,

You are cofusing workman's comp insurance with health insurance. Workman's comp insurance covers any injury that happens on the job, and THE LAW requires all employers to have workman's comp insurance. So, workers are entirely covered for work place accidents.

Health insurance covers employees for all health problems, regardless of whether or not they were work place accidents. For instance, cancer isn't a work place accident and it isn't covered by workman's comp. Instead, it falls under the health insurance.

Now, there are plans out there like HRA's that have a high deductible health insurance plan. The deductible is usually $5,000 or more. With the money that the employer saves on the insurance coverage, the employer usually puts an amount of it back into the employees HRA account to help pay for a portion of the deductible. The employee also has the option of making pre-tax contributions to the HRA account to cover the deductible amounts. The amount in an HRA account can rollover from one year to the next, and if they employee has money left in his HRA account after retirement, the account essentially turns into and IRA.

I think the HRA is great. It requires insureds (i.e., employees) to think twice about running to the doctor for a runny nose, or for demanding uneeded prescriptions. This is a way for both the employer and the employee to pay for a portion of health care.

Let's be clear about one thing, the $6 billion cost to Ford for health care does not include workman's comp.

Regarding exec compensation, most of them get a couple of million, with bonuses based upon the company's performance. It is the select few that you hear about in the news that everybody is up in arms about, but the majority of CEO's and execs don't make anywhere near what everybody thinks they make.

Then, there is my drywall contractor that made over $1 million one year during the housing boom, and tons of money other years.

Here is an article about the Ford salaries. Don't know if I agree with it, but it does explain it a little. I could understand a big bonus if he got the company in the black, with only a couple million a year in the mean time, but what he made in 2007 is a little ridiculous.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/04/m...lions-in-2007/

[justwannano]

Quote fab
You are cofusing workman's comp insurance with health insurance. Workman's comp insurance covers any injury that happens on the job, and THE LAW requires all employers to have workman's comp insurance. So, workers are entirely covered for work place accidents.
/Q

No I know about workmans comp.
I'm referring to health issues that are attributable to the work place but you cannot directly prove it.
ie the lung issue caused by asbestos. Black lung disease and something simple as pnumonia.- sometimes caused by ammonia used as coolant in cold storage.
Also the reduction of carsinagens

Think any of that stuff wouldn't still be happening in a grand scale without health insurance?
Think the upper management would miraculosly sprout wings and give a damn if there wern't pressure on them?

Quote fab
Now, there are plans out there like HRA's that have a high deductible health insurance plan. The deductible is usually $5,000 or more. With the money that the employer saves on the insurance coverage, the employer usually puts an amount of it back into the employees HRA account to help pay for a portion of the deductible. The employee also has the option of making pre-tax contributions to the HRA account to cover the deductible amounts. The amount in an HRA account can rollover from one year to the next, and if they employee has money left in his HRA account after retirement, the account essentially turns into and IRA.
/q

Got any idea what an unexpected bill of $5000 would do to a hard working family whose major bread winner makes 7.25 an hour? How about $10.00 an hour?
I heard some where that the average American family exists on $45000 a year.
Case in point
I've had both hips replaced. Both within 4 years. Probably attributable to work but unprovable.
We would be homeless without insurance.



Quote fab
Here is an article about the Ford salaries. Don't know if I agree with it, but it does explain it a little. I could understand a big bonus if he got the company in the black, with only a couple million a year in the mean time, but what he made in 2007 is a little ridiculous.
?q

See there is the difference. Somehow you can see a couple of million a year...
I see that as an abomination.
Many hard working folks don't make a million in a lifetime.

have a good one
just

[GoodOlBoy]

No the algae procs was an example of how big buisness can make things disapear with little to no trace.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

Just,

When my dad retired 4 years ago, he was making $45,000 a year working for the government. My mom quit working 37 years ago when I was born. My parents raised 5 kids, sent 4 to college (i.e., one of us didn't have the scores to get into college), and have owned outright their 4 bedroom, 4 bathroom house on 2/3 acres for over 15 years now. They were as frugal as could be, and I think they did a great job. The average household income around where I live is $100K, but the average house price at its height was $500K. $45K in a lot of places in America is a pretty decent income, especially when the average house price is $200K or less. A friend of mine just went from Baltimore to Louisville, Kentucky. He sold his house in Baltimore for $450K and bought a bigger house with a lot more property in Kentucky for $270K.

The relevance of income amounts depends on location.

As far as why companies don't use asbestos or manufacture lead paint or choose not to use flame retardant material in childrens pajamas has nothing to do with health insurance, but something called class action lawsuits. They get the pants sued off of them for doing stuff like that, especially once it becomes known that those actions are harmful. Peter Angelos and Saul Kerpelman are famous for asbestos lawsuits and lead paint poisoning law suits in the Baltimore area, and Peter Angelos made enough from class action asbestos lawsuits that he was able to buy the Orioles baseball team. About 8 years ago, Angelos made $200 million+ on a class action lawsuit against the tobacco companies on behalf of the State of Maryland. The judgment amount was $25 billion and Angelos' contingency fee agreement provided that he should get $4 billion. The State thought that was a little much, so they took him to Court and the Courts agreed and reduced the attorney fee from $4 billion to $200 million. Try comparing that to CEO salaries.

How about the owners of sports franchises? How about the players? Alex Rodriquez makes $25 million a year to hit a little white ball. Manny Ramirez might be getting close to that pretty soon. How about LeBron James or Michael Jordan?

Honestly, I believe in a free market place and under normal circumstances would say let the financial institutions and the Big 3 go down. However, we are not facing normal circumstances here. The question is whether letting all of them go down in flames will result in the country going down in flames?

[justwannano]

Quote fab
As far as why companies don't use asbestos or manufacture lead paint or choose not to use flame retardant material in childrens pajamas has nothing to do with health insurance, but something called class action lawsuits. They get the pants sued off of them for doing stuff like that, especially once it becomes known that those actions are harmful. Peter Angelos and Saul Kerpelman are famous for asbestos lawsuits and lead paint poisoning law suits in the Baltimore area, and Peter Angelos made enough from class action asbestos lawsuits that he was able to buy the Orioles baseball team. About 8 years ago, Angelos made $200 million+ on a class action lawsuit against the tobacco companies on behalf of the State of Maryland. The judgment amount was $25 billion and Angelos' contingency fee agreement provided that he should get $4 billion. The State thought that was a little much, so they took him to Court and the Courts agreed and reduced the attorney fee from $4 billion to $200 million. Try comparing that to CEO salaries.
/q

You are not looking far enough back.
Someone had to sound the alert.
I suppose it could have been the local undertaker but I'll bet it was insurance companies.

IMHO class action law suits are just a balancing act. Too many law suits and the court system is overloaded.
As far as ball players making all that money. Disgraceful is not near a strong enough word.
But as long as there are those that have enough money to pay to fix ball games that will probably continue.


I'm guessing some of those execs couldn't walk around the bases.
Then again we aren't talking about ball players.

Speaking of that I'd also guess that the CEO that you were trying to compare to the guy that installs seats probably couldn't physically last the day.

Have a good one
just

Oh one last thing.
Did your father have insurance paid for by his employer>

[fabsroman]

Yes, my father had insurance paid for by the government, but if you ever look closely at those policies, they aren't completely paid for. They are almost like the high deductible policies I mentioned.

Essentially, my dad at one point had an 80/20 policy with BCBS, but that 20% can be a hum dinger too when a major surgery is required. For instance, on a $100K heart surgery, the insured/employee could be on the hook for $20K. Luckily, there is usually a maximum out of pocket on those policies, and nowadays they are around $3,000 to $5,000. I know because I had to review one of these policies about 4 years ago when a client of mine had a 2 month premature baby and the hospital bill was in the 6 figures and then some.

I think a health policy that makes employees responsible for the first amount of outlays, is a very good idea. Then, it gives them a little more incentive to be healthy (e.g., smoking, drinking, and eating). It also makes them think twice about risky behavior. Yes, a lot of families could not afford to be hit with a $5,000 insurance deductible, but as I mentioned earlier the employer usually kicks in an amount every year. Say it is $1,000 every year. If them employee and the employee's family don't use it for 5 years, then they have it covered for one catastrophic incident. If they don't use it for 30 years, or the employee decides to contribute a little extra to it, then they will have even more money in it and be able to weather a couple of catastrophes. Remember, if they don't use the money by the time they qualify for Medicare, it becomes retirement money.

[GoodOlBoy]

This whole thing kinda reminds me of the Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream company in reverse. No employee of Ben and Jerry's can ever be paid more than 7 times as much as the lowest paid employee. That means the presidents only make 7 times what the guy sweeping the floor makes. This is a company that in '91 as a startup was certain to fail and instead went nation wide in a matter of months. Also of note, no memeber of the board can make a motion at their annual company meeting unless they get up on stage and sing the motion.

Love TV specials about companies like that.

GoodOlBoy

[Steverino]

After considering the impacts to the economy in lost jobs throughout the country and immediate cost, I would still not bail out the failed US auto industry.

In my opinion, we simply cannot. The budget models utilzed by these organizations have failed miserably for years- even with the pre SUV, and truck sales by the Big 3 over the last few years. The UAW has raped the industry also for years. My father worked for years in the Local 701, I know. I believe that the unions in their inception were wonderful and did some very good things for workers and the nation but like most good things, became corrupted and no longer served to it's intent.

This is a capitalistic nation built upon the ideas of a free, entreaprenarial spirit. If these businesses fail, (I personally do not believe that Ford will fail -they have cash to weather the storm and are leveraged better than GM & Chrysler ) what emerges over time will be another American car maker to fill the void. If there is a need, someone will rise to fill it. Other automobile manufacturers have failed in the US.

There are other geo=political concerns. I personally do not like the government running our banks and other financial institutions and now the proposed auto industry-certainly not under the Obama White House and Democratic legislation. What's next and who is next for a bail-out? (take-over) The US retailers are reported to remain a shell of their former selves from what I am reading, following the expected dismal sales from this holiday shopping season. Does the government take them over as well? Where does it stop?

Watching the senate and house subcommittee hearings over the past couple of days I was struck with bewilderment at Ford's CEO Alan Mulally and GM's CEO Rick Wagonner's refusal to consider giving up their combined 35 million dollar compensation packages when pressed by Illinois Republican represenative Peter Roskam. They flew to the hearings in personal corporate jets and were chided by the House for not "down grading" to First class flights. The apparent disconnect of these men that are/would be in charge of any bailout plan is nothing but disconcerting.

Rick Wagonner could also not provide any form of a straight answer to exasperated Rep members as to how much in total GM would require in funds to remain solvent in the long haul (after making comments that both the earlier 25 billion in aid to further advance fuel efficient technology combined with the current 25 billion proposal may not be enough) Your indistry has been in the toilet for years but you cannot provide a budget model for your own company financial rescue?

From what I am reading, Obama can (probably will) award the bailouts without going through Congress. (If GM can remain that long) Bush has maintained a firm veto for any bailout plan to the auto industry which crosses his desk.

[Steverino]

Should the bailout plan fail...
IMO
Ford, GM, and Chrysler should all file for restructuring. This is truly what the US industry needs at this time, not another lump sum of money that goes towards the bottomless pit. Chrysler's own consulting groups say that an additional 30 billion would be consumed in the first financial quarter of 09.

All three of these organizations need a complete overhaul and a filing for restructuring would go a long way in facilitating this end.

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I wouldn't agree on a bailout if those execs weren't willing to give up some of their millions in compensation. The more I listen to those morons, the more torn I become. I think the failure of the American auto industry will definitely hurt the nation and make this recession last longer, but I think we can recover from it.

As far as new American auto manufacturers coming about, I would seriously doubt that. When was the last time that we saw a new American auto manufacturer? I don't think there was one during my lifetime, except for maybe Delorean and some other small niche manufacturers.

[GoodOlBoy]

Actually a new one was born a few years ago. They make electric automobobbles called zapcars. Yeah yeah I know if it ain't a billion square acre plant makin gas burners, BUT it is still autos.

http://www.zapworld.com/

[GoodOlBoy]

and this one, and several other models.

[Dan Morris]

Originally posted by Steverino
Should the bailout plan fail...
IMO
Ford, GM, and Chrysler should all file for restructuring. This is truly what the US industry needs at this time, not another lump sum of money that goes towards the bottomless pit. Chrysler's own consulting groups say that an additional 30 billion would be consumed in the first financial quarter of 09.

All three of these organizations need a complete overhaul and a filing for restructuring would go a long way in facilitating this end.

I'm gonna go along with this. They will emerge a lot leaner but will still be there. If the legal beagles haven't already drafted this, they are still asleep at the wheel! We continue to fly on airlines that are under Ch 11, and no real problems. Face it...big rock candy mountain is out of sugar!
Dan