Congress does it again???

[fabsroman]

GOB,

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm not going to agree with you either. Things always seem so black and white. Kind of like how we used to have tons and tons of Bison. What happened there? Market hunters almost made them extinct. There used to be an over abundance of waterfowl too, until market hunters brought some of them to the brink of extinction. With waterfowl, we still have years where the entire season on them is closed (e.g., Canvasback, Pintail, the Atlantic canada goose).

With the feral hogs and the seaweed, I would say no problem because they both seem like pests. However, what happens to the price of pork once market hunters enter the scenario? Will the price of pork go up or down as the supply steadily increases? I can tell you the answer to that. The price will go down. So, what happens to the pig farmers? They will get less and less money for their pigs, and will do the same thing. Up and quit and let the pigs run free. Now, what happens after the market hunters wipe out the pigs and there are no more pig farmers around? I guess we can hope that more pig farmers will get back into the business. I'm willing to bet that these smart people are being tugged by the pig farmers and the current feed regarding the pig hunting and seaweed harvesting respectively.

In today's world, nothing is very simple, and very few things are black and white.

[bulletpusher]

After looking at your post, I would like to correct a couple of your misconceptions.

The plains buffalo was killed down almost to extinction to stop the Plains Indians that were giving the U.S. Army Calvary such a hard time. It was not for market hunting.

The buffalo (of which there where 3 or 4 main heards numbering in the hunderds of thousands in each heard) was the main source of food, clothing and tool sources for the Indians.

Since that time, the buffalo have made a come back to the point people are paying big bucks to hunt them on private ranches that have heards of them in the hundereds of thousands again and still growing.

You said that the Canadian goose seasons are closed some years. Well the last 4 or 5 years the Canadian government has opened a spring and fall goose hunt seasons because the geese are so thick that they need to hunt them 2 times a year just to help control the overpopulations of the geese. They are doing this because the geese are eating themselves into starvation due to lack of areas that can hold that many geese at one time.

I read in another place where you commented on global warming. Just so you know Global Warming is a big lie. It is the new religion some people. The main thing it is, is a way for some people to get rich quick, working on someone else's fears, like our former vice-president and lier Al Gore. He owns two companies that sell carbon credits, so yes he wants everyone to buy carbon credits. "Its all a big lie".

As far as what I listen to on the radio or the TV, thats my buisness. I don't listen to most of the tv news programs because they are a bunch of liberal communist lieing idots with $150 hair cuts that can't think with out a teleprompter, just like the pretender in the White House and they would not know the truth if it bit them on the ass.

The radio shows that I listen to are of my chooseing and I listen because they are for the most part telling more of the truth than anyone else.

Now you can disagree with me, I don't care, I will not try to change your mind or persuade you to come over to my side. You can believe what you want to believe, thats your problem, not mine.

But you might want to consider that things are black and white most of the time and sometimes with shades of gray for a little spice.

[GoodOlBoy]

Market hunters will never be able to wipe out feral pigs (and it is a real shame they can't) First of all Pigs begin breeding at 8 months of age, gestation is 112-114 days, and the litters run from 6-18 in feral pigs (although litters above 12 do not have a good survival rate) The Texas Parks and Wildlife announced last hunting season that they believe the feral pig population in Texas alone is growing by about 60000 (yes thats sixty THOUSAND) a year.

Tell me how market hunters are going to keep up with that? Two days ago I saw 6 full grown sows surrounded by more than sixty piglets that looked to be 2-3 months old. By deer season they will have bred, and by February 2/3s of them will have had liters of 6-18!

You want to throw buffalo in there because of it? We are not talking about a native breed wiped out by the US government to starve native people! We are talking about a wildlife catastrophe CREATED by the government from the time they started using scare tactics about pig disease in the 80s until the time they banished selling the meat! Now most ranchers pay people to come shoot the pigs and roll them into a ditch because the meat can't be sold, you can only eat so much pork, and Hunter's for the Hungry won't take pork in case it offends the PC crowd!

You know whats black and white? Hay and vegetable prices in east Texas because of the crops that have been destroyed by feral pigs, THAT'S whats black and white. Even attacks on people by pigs have gone through the roof in the last few years. The autobody shops around are seeing record numbers of pig destroyed cars (yea destroyed you hit a pig and you aint pullin that dent out!)

Ill post some links later

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

GOB,

I'm not going to disagree with you, but I'm not going to agree with you either. Things always seem so black and white. Kind of like how we used to have tons and tons of Bison. What happened there? Market hunters almost made them extinct. There used to be an over abundance of waterfowl too, until market hunters brought some of them to the brink of extinction. With waterfowl, we still have years where the entire season on them is closed (e.g., Canvasback, Pintail, the Atlantic canada goose).

With the feral hogs and the seaweed, I would say no problem because they both seem like pests. However, what happens to the price of pork once market hunters enter the scenario? Will the price of pork go up or down as the supply steadily increases? I can tell you the answer to that. The price will go down. So, what happens to the pig farmers? They will get less and less money for their pigs, and will do the same thing. Up and quit and let the pigs run free. Now, what happens after the market hunters wipe out the pigs and there are no more pig farmers around? I guess we can hope that more pig farmers will get back into the business. I'm willing to bet that these smart people are being tugged by the pig farmers and the current feed regarding the pig hunting and seaweed harvesting respectively.

In today's world, nothing is very simple, and very few things are black and white.

Well Fabs..as far as the wild critters in this country you should know better than what you said. As was pointed out with the Buffalo that was a governmental decision that brought the natives in this country to their knees along with other measures. As far as the ducks and geese..Fabs market hunting has been outlawed nearly 100 yrs. That isn't what is affecting waterfowl numbers...and you do know it. Breeding areas have been lost in large measure to urban sprawl and modern farming practices. Wintering areas too. Got any resident geese in your area?? Yep..I know so.. I also remember when there were no geese in Md..probably less in the winter than live in Prince Georges county now. Then farming practices changed and geese faired well. Then they took a turn for the worse with bad nesting years. Yep..we kept shooting them..but with a bit of luck they will come back.

As far as feral pigs..or grizzlies or wolves....only when man makes ridiculous laws do we have real problems. Feral pigs are a big problem in more areas than Texas..but especially bad there. Wolves in Wyoming are turning into a real problem.. The Elk herds are being affected tremendously by the wolves and grizzlies. With the new crop of calves at a survival rate of 3% or less..guess what will happen? And the grizzlies are not afraid of people. We just had another grizz attack..and a mountain lion attack etc etc. Hate to say it Fabs but there are many black and white solutions to many black and white problems..Seems like too many gray areas are created by politicians. And must I say... too many politicians are ...Lawyers

[fabsroman]

Bison were hunted almost to extinction in the 19th century and were reduced to a few hundred by the mid-1880s. They were hunted for their skins, with the rest of the animal left behind to decay on the ground.[16] After the animals rotted, their bones were collected and shipped back east in large quantities.[16]

The US Army sanctioned and actively endorsed the wholesale slaughter of bison herds.[17] The US Federal government promoted bison hunting for various reasons, to allow ranchers to range their cattle without competition from other bovines, and primarily to weaken the North American Indian population by removing their main food source and to pressure them onto the reservations.[18] Without the bison, native people of the plains were forced to leave the land or starve to death.

According to historian Pekka Hämäläinen, Native Americans also contributed to the collapse of the bison.[19] By the 1830s the Comanche and their allies on the southern plains were killing about 280,000 bison a year, which was near the limit of sustainability for that region. Firearms and horses, along with a growing export market for buffalo robes and bison meat had resulted in larger and larger numbers of bison killed each year. A long and intense drought hit the southern plains in 1845, lasting into the 1860s, which caused a widespread collapse of the bison herds.[19] In the 1860s, the rains returned and the bison herds recovered to a degree.

The railroad industry also wanted bison herds culled or eliminated. Herds of bison on tracks could damage locomotives when the trains failed to stop in time. Herds often took shelter in the artificial cuts formed by the grade of the track winding though hills and mountains in harsh winter conditions. As a result, bison herds could delay a train for days.
This map based on William Temple Hornaday's late-nineteenth-century research.
A pile of bison skulls in the 1870s.

The main reason for the bison's near-demise, much like the actual demise of the Passenger Pigeon, was commercial hunting.

Bison skins were used for industrial machine belts, clothing such as robes, and rugs. There was a huge export trade to Europe of bison hides. Old West bison hunting was very often a big commercial enterprise, involving organized teams of one or two professional hunters, backed by a team of skinners, gun cleaners, cartridge reloaders, cooks, wranglers, blacksmiths, security guards, teamsters, and numerous horses and wagons. Men were even employed to recover and recast lead bullets taken from the carcasses. Many of these professional hunters, such as Buffalo Bill Cody, killed over a hundred animals at a single stand and many thousands in their career. One professional hunter killed over 20,000 by his own count. A good hide could bring $3 in Dodge City, Kansas, and a very good one (the heavy winter coat) could sell for $50 in an era when a laborer would be lucky to make a dollar a day.

The hunter would customarily locate the herd in the early morning, and station himself about 100 meters (100 yd) from it, shooting the animals broadside through the lungs. Head shots were not preferred as the soft lead bullets would often flatten and fail to penetrate the skull, especially if mud was matted on the head of the animal. The bison would drop until either the herd sensed danger and stampeded or perhaps a wounded animal attacked another, causing the herd to disperse. If done properly a large number of bison would be felled at one time. Following up were the skinners, who would drive a spike through the nose of each dead animal with a sledgehammer, hook up a horse team, and pull the hide from the carcass. The hides were dressed, prepared, and stacked on the wagons by other members of the organization.
A bull bison, illustrated in The Extermination of the American Bison. Used on the obverse of the 1901 American Bison $10 bill.

For a decade from 1873 on there were several hundred, perhaps over a thousand, such commercial hide hunting outfits harvesting bison at any one time, vastly exceeding the take by American Indians or individual meat hunters. The commercial take arguably was anywhere from 2,000 to 100,000 animals per day depending on the season, though there are no statistics available. It was said that the Big .50s were fired so much that hunters needed at least two rifles to let the barrels cool off; The Fireside Book of Guns reports they were sometimes quenched in the winter snow. Dodge City saw railroad cars sent East filled with stacked hides.

As the great herds began to wane, proposals to protect the bison were discussed. Cody, among others, spoke in favor of protecting the bison because he saw that the pressure on the species was too great. Yet these proposals were discouraged since it was recognized that the Plains Indians, often at war with the United States, depended on bison for their way of life. In 1874, President Ulysses S. Grant "pocket vetoed" a Federal bill to protect the dwindling bison herds, and in 1875 General Philip Sheridan pleaded to a joint session of Congress to slaughter the herds, to deprive the Indians of their source of food.[20] By 1884, the American Bison was close to extinction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Bison

That Wiki article even provides footnotes for the source of the information.

If you guys need more links, please let me know.

Google is a wonderful thing. You guys should try it sometime, especially if you want to take specific positions on something. Again, it was commercial hunting that did in the Bison.

Now Skeet, why don't you explain to Bulletpusher how there was a moratorium on hunting the Atlantic canada goose population for several years, and even now I believe the daily bag limit is one or two birds.

[fabsroman]

And here we have another little bit about market hunting:

As the states became populated, market hunting developed into both a major business and a respected profession. With the development of the country, needs for specialized skills developed in the society. Shopkeepers, blacksmiths, doctors, wagon makers, and other craftsmen concentrated on their trades. While they may have enjoyed hunting as a personal activity, they could not afford to hunt for subsistence. One of the developing trades became market hunting. Market hunters provided a supply of wild game meat to the growing towns. These professional hunters specialized in their trade as well, making a living by hunting, trapping or otherwise providing meat.



Skilled specialists, market hunters were not restricted by bag limits or seasons in most states. As a result, their unrestricted harvests were able to deplete game populations significantly. Those impacts were enhanced by habitat loss. One state that was nearly completely forested in colonial times had only 16 percent of its forests by 1850. With the loss of that forested habitat came the loss of most forest and forest edge wildlife.



Although today we know that market hunting led to over-exploitation of many species, market hunters provided a necessary service. Immense game herds and flocks seemed limitless, but as demand for meat and market hunting efficiency increased, populations began to suffer. Obvious declines or even extirpations of deer, bison, antelope and elk took place. Waterfowl and upland birds, including the passenger pigeon, declined under continuous demand for game meat by the growing American population.



As these losses became obvious to sport hunters (non-commercial hunters), they developed a concern for the future of wildlife and began to work for change and improvement. As the end of the 19th century approached, sportsmen conservationists who recognized something was wrong began to call for controls on the harvest of game. They demanded that action be taken to conserve wildlife populations. In 1888, a group of sport hunters started the Boone and Crockett Club, which led a crusade to protect the nation's troubled game herds. Their actions led to the development of national parks and wildlife refuges as well as regulation of harvest. By 1900, twenty-three states enacted laws that limited harvest.


Their efforts started a trend of caring for wildlife that continued into the 20th century as more game protection programs were implemented. In 1900, the Lacey Act prohibited interstate shipment of illegally killed wildlife. This provided some federal help under the interstate commerce clause of the Constitution to control market hunting. A forester at the University of Wisconsin, Aldo Leopold, wrote the first wildlife management text in North America in 1933 and helped formalize the emerging art and science of wildlife management. The Duck Stamp Act of 1934, lobbied for by waterfowlers, provided funds from federal stamps to aid in waterfowl management and to permit purchase of lands for federal waterfowl refuges. Sportsmen lobbied for an additional excise tax on sporting arms and ammunition to provide aid to states for resident wildlife management. In 1937, the Pittman-Robertson Act was passed taxing long guns and ammunition for this dedicated purpose. This legislation has perhaps had the greatest impact on wildlife research and management of any legislation ever passed.

http://www.gunmuse.com/Blog/Dr%20Jim%20Knight/218

[fabsroman]

Sure GOB, continue to tell yourself that market hunters would not be able to decimate the feral hog population if market hunting was allowed and there was a demand for the meat.

Let's talk technology here and the definition of market hunting. Market hunting is not sitting up in a tree stand with a rifle all day waiting to kill one or two hogs, but slaughtering the entire group when you come upon them. On top of that, it would allow the use of implements that sport hunters are not allowed to use to pursue the feral hogs. They might even allow the use of helicopters to locate and shoot the hogs. Imagine how much ground a market hunter could cover if it turned out to be a proftable venture. The pilot and the shooter fly around killing hogs and then radio the coordinates to the ground crew that come and pick them up with trucks and ATV's. Just take a look at market hunting of waterfowl, etc. that I posted above in response to Bulletpusher and Skeet. Again, if there is a demand for the meat, hide, etc. and the hunters can turn a profit, I'm willing to be that they would put one heck of a hurt on feral hogs.

I bet nobody would have dreamed that commercial fishermen would be able to fish the seas dry of fish, but it is happening. Believe me, when there is a profit to be had, man will exploit it.

[skeet]

It has merely been pointed out that the buffalo were wiped out for more than a commerciql reason. And of course fish and other natural resources are being over exploited. We all know what you are pointing out..but..tell us all how the US commercial fishing fleets are doing that?? US Fabs. We can not control other countries and what they do to the environment and wildfife populations.. We have control over our own borders. The Canada Goose hunting was curtailed on the east coast(Atlantic population) for quite a few years. There was an unforeseen over harvest and an unforessen under recruitment of young..meaning that the geese were losing numbers. They were not able to keep the numbers up because of several years of unsuccessful breeding attempts. The reduction of numbers wasn't due solely to market hunting as you seem to be pointing out. They were overhunted(not just in the US) at the same time they were unsuccessful in breeding due to weather. Market hunting of waterfowl and other shorebirds was stopped in 1918 I think. Was it wrong to market hunt?? To our way of thinking now it was..but in it's heyday ...doubtful. Remember Fabs..When did we reach the goal of 100 million people in this country? Heck we didn't reach 200 million until the 1960's..and it has gone downhill for all species of wildlife since then..except for the ones that sports men and women have helped through the P-R taxes they helped initiate..and through organizations such as DU and others supporting game such as quail turkey pheasant deer and Elk. There really is NO such thing as any organized "market hunting" any longer. At least on any large scale. Tell me how the Petas and HSUSA are helping all of the animals in this country. You know talking about the buffalo..there used to be wolves that followed the herds around. Those same wolves were still in the area around Yellowstone. Not here now though. They were smaller than the Da*N wolves that lobbyist got introduced. Guess what killed 'em off?? My neighboor saw wolves regularly before the wolf introduction. It was NOT a re-introduction. And all the no fur people..many furbearers are predators. Guess how the wild bird populations are fairing in some areas. Those people complain about the wearing of fur while the reduction of trapping has killed 50 times the population of critters. As I said, Fabs..how many geese are there in PG County?? In 1955 they figured there were about 20,000 Canada Geese wintering in Md. Bet there are more in PG now

Now tell us how hunters are going to hurt the pork industry and wipe out feral hogs.... Lets kill the feral hog and let 'em lay..a waste but it certainly won't hurt the pork industry..anymore than deer hunting hurts the beef industry. The feral hog problem and the horse problems in this country have occurred because of political meddling into things that shouldn't have happend. Horses are such a glut on the market right now it is unbelievable. You can hardly sell a horse..and you surely can't slaughter them. That is why there are so many horses..Ya can't put 'em down even for dog food. Horse meat is eaten in many countries including Canadaand used to be eaten here too (Mickey D's??). It is now ILLEGAL to ship horses across the Canadian border to have them slaughtered for food.. Sheesh Fabs. Our governing bodies have put the country in this position because of undue pressure from lobbying groups. Again lobbyists and politicians..people using the law to get their own way. And most of those people are..lawyers!! In case you were wondering...that was a little dig at some of your...friends and associates. hahaha

[GoodOlBoy]

OK fabs lets mention the fact that I have done market hunting (coon meat) and know what it is. Lets also mention the fact that decimating the feral hog population would be a GOOD thing (second only to decimating the fireant population in east Texas). (We could also mention that I rarely stand hunt, that is harvesting not hunting)

At any rate market hunting for pig will never be profitable enough to involve helicopters, carpet bombing, or surface to air missiles, and market hunters were already using devices not allowed in normal hunting in Texas. Devices such as hog dogs, and traps. Why in the heck would somebody WANT to use a very expensive chopper to hunt pigs when they are mostly nocturnal, and a cheap hog trap does the job so effectively and easily that its almost like cheating?

I have to say this particular leg of this conversation has gotten me so riled that I have had to delete about a dozen lines from this post alone.

People who don't live with a problem should have NO say in how the problem is handled. EVER.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

Alright, we have about 8 million different subjects in this post.

Atlantic population of canada geese. My point was that regulation is necessary sometimes. That was my point. Plain and simple. My point wasn't that hunting brought about that matter, but that continued hunting would not have helped it. Sometimes, heck most of the time, government regulation is a good thing. Then, there are the times when government goes too far.

On to the horses. I have no idea what the current laws are regarding horses, and I have no inclination to do any research on them tonight, tomorrow, or this entire week for that matter. I had a PM discussion last year with a rancher on here that owns a 20,000 acre ranch. He wasn't a regular, but it was a good PM discussion. I believe it had to do with elk eating all the food he put out for his cattle. I cannot remember the entire debate, but we had a good time debating it. Anyway, sometimes some laws benefit the many and hurt a few. That kind of stuff needs to be taken into account too. On another board I just finished debating mandatory gun locks, gun safes, and extremely harsh penalties for those that did not use them because some guy wants to prevent accidental deaths to children. Well, I looked up the statistics and all of 1,000 kids from 0 to 18 years of age die each year from accidental gun shots, and not all of those occur in the home where the locks and safes would be worth anything. So, is preventing the majority of these deaths by requiring the mandatory use of locks and safes, and imposing harsh penalties worth the burden to society (i.e., are the few that are harmed worth the cost as a whole).

Would wiping out the horses be worth it? How was it that wolves were pretty much wiped out from the continental US? That couldn't have been all from bears now could it?

Ultimately, if the horses are out of control, I do think they should be controlled. If shooting them and making dog food out of them would work, so be it. However, that puts a market element to it and it could cause some issues. How much would a dog food company be willing to pay for 100 pounds of horse meat? How much profit could the hunter turn? Could these horses be rounded up and just slaughtered in a pen? Would the market hunter be able to make a fortune doing that?

Here is a novel idea. How about letting the USFWS do the killing and selling. The US government can sell this resource to the dog food companies and the American people can receive the benefit with these funds being put back towards additional habitat or the USFWS.

[fabsroman]

Let me start off by saying I know nothing about hunting hogs, or the raising of pigs.

I agree with you about getting rid of the feral hogs being a good thing. From what I have seen, I'll be able to hunt them in Maryland pretty soon.

I think you missed my point. If people are given enough money to do something, then they will do it pretty well. For instance, if a hog would bring in $50 a head, I think there would be plenty of interest. Now, the question is how many pig farmers would this put out of business.

Does feral hog taste just like regular pork, or is it vastly different? Could it be sold as a cheaper type of meat below regular pork? In essence, could there be a market for it? If there is a demand, people will supply it and find profitable ways to do so, whether it be rifles, helicopters, traps, B-52's, or whatever else.

[PJgunner]

"People who don't live with a problem should have NO say in how the problem is handled. EVER."

RIGHT ON GOB!

"Does feral hog taste just like regular pork, or is it vastly different?"

All I can speak for was the feral hog I ate at a bar-B-Que. Damn good but it did taste different. They cooked it hawaiin stlye buried in a pit with coals. YUM!

"Could it be sold as a cheaper type of meat below regular pork?"

Probably not. The threat of trichinosis (sp) from domestic pork is quite low but in the feral animal the threat of that disease is quite high. The admontion to cook the meat thoroughly goes triple digit here.

I saw a site a few days back where they had a "fill your freezer special" where you can take three cull deer and five feral hogs. The price wasn't too bad and I might give it another look see although I'm not sureI want that much pork. it would remeind me way too much of the Congress.
Paul B.