CWD - fostered by greed and profit

[Skyline]

"The state believes the disease spread through the herd so extensively because of the 3 1/2-year court battle, the Associated Press reports."

Fabs..............and the point of this is what? As a lawyer are you suggesting that this individual is less entitled to protect his interests than someone else? Obviously he has legal counsel and obviously there are issues involved or it wouldn't be an on-going legal challenge.

I am also unfamiliar with the specific issues in this case but it will involve money.............doesn't it always? Perhaps the state is offering a rediculously low amount of compensation to the farmer in question. If a business owner that is being forced out of business by the government disagrees with the amount that he is initially offered, does he not have the right to challenge it in court?

Somehow......because he disagrees and it involves a deer farm, he is 'greedy' but other business owners are not? Obviously he has found a member of the legal profession that thinks there is some merit/substance to his case.

State and provincial government agencies allowed game farming, hell they encouraged it in many cases.........now that there are problems they want to wash their hands of any responsibility. Who allowed the sale and transport of game animals across state, provincial and international boundaries in the first place?

So forget the 'deer' aspect to the issue for a moment. Here is an example of how things often work for the livestock producers that encounter a problem with a reportable disease (yes required by law to report certain diseases).

Take bovine TB as an example. The farmer has an animal test positive. The government quarantines his entire herd and test them. Several test positive and the blood samples are then sent out to be cutlured at a laboratory. The cultures positively confirm bovine TB in the herd. The state or province officials then order the entire herd to be euthanized.......and the guys dogs and horses, cause they all came into contact and could actually test positive for the disease.

The farmer then gets paid a set fee per animal.......oh lets say $1200 dollars per animal......but he is out of business......no income from his cow/calf herd. He can't repopulate his farm for several years due to regulations..........now what, go and pump gas at the local service station?

That is how these things actually work out in the real world and you nor anyone else is usually aware of how it all goes down.....that the farmer might have a legitimate beef (pardon the pun). So is the farmer in the last instance 'greedy' or is he just trying to get a fair shake?

CWD is a serious issue and the state and provincial governments are largely responsible for the fiasco that it has turned into.

popplecop....................I am totally on side with what you are saying. The antler craze has caused and continues to cause a lot of problems. I absolutely abhor 'fenced' hunting. Sadly, if you watch these forums......wild boar preserves, red stag in Maine, exotics in Texas are considered ethical by many people. Many people seem to like the fact that the are usually guaranteed a trophy, it is quick and doesn't require a big time commitment like real hunting trips. I believe the lack of places to hunt in many states, where high landowner tresspass fees and expensive hunt club fees are becoming the norm, is causing quite a few people to look at the hunt preserves.

Again, I am not saying I agree with it, just that there are reasons fenced hunting started and continues to exist.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

You don't know much about attorneys and litigation. I once went on an interview and was asked how many hours I currently billed at the firm I was working at. I told them 1,850, and that I pretty much billed out whatever they gave me to do, but that I couldn't create litigation. The managing partner's response at the interviewing firm was "You can always create litigation."

Working at law firms, I have seen motions after motions filed to try and wear down plaintiff's firms. Not because the motions would be successful, but because we, as defense attorneys, got paid by the hour and figured that because the plaintiff's attorneys were working on a contingency fee they wouldn't be willing to work as hard because they weren't getting paid. In that case, which happened to be in DC, we even filed a Declaratory Judgment action in Federal Court in Maryland because of diversity of citizenship and an insurance question. Ultimately, the facts deciding the insurance question were to be decided by the DC Court and the Maryland Federal District Court Judge figured that out and dismissed the case based upon the Plaintiff's attorney's Response. Before we even filed the dec judgment action in Maryland, I knew that was the correct action by the Judge and so did the partner because I told her that would probably happen. At the end of the day, the DC case should have been thrown out right away, but we had it drag on for over a year. The Plaintiff wanted $10,000,000 for sheer stupidity and I was billing about $10,000 a month on that case.

Let's see, what exactly was the partner's reason for getting rid of that case right away. Oh yeah, to save the client money, both in the judgment amount and the attorneys fees. Lets look at this some more. She was one of three equity partners in the firm and she just lost a big lead paint insurance client because the leading lead paint plaintiff's attorney told the insurance company that he would not settle any case of its anymore if this lady was the attorney on it. So, she lost a significant amount of money on it. She was falling behind to the other two partners that were bringing in millions of dollars.

Yes, attorneys are not supposed to bring cases that do not have merit, but that doesn't mean we cannot find merit in the smallest thing. Give me a client willing to pay hourly for something, and I am sure that I can find some reason to keep the case in Court. Granted, I always inform that client that the chance is a snow ball's in hell.

Quite honestly, I deplore billable hours at law firms, but that is just the way it goes. So, yeah, this guy found an attorney willing to take his case, or he found an attorney willing to take his money. Do you really think he had a winning case when an animal tested positive for CWD? What was the end result, he lost his herd plus he had to pay his attorney. I would have advised him to let the state take the herd and save the attorneys fees. If he really wanted to run a game farm, I would have advised him to sell his quarantined farm, buy some new land and put the money saved in attorneys fees toward buying some new deer. I would have also advised him of the potential liability if a hunter got CWD from an animal that was killed and he, the farmer, had knowledge that the animal might have CWD. Yes, bad news is hard to swallow, but it is better to deal with it at the beginning than at the end. Yes, everybody is entitled to their day in Court, but the general outcome usually does not change. A good attorney should be able to advise a client as to his chances in Court and then advise him whether to go for it or not. A client of mine, before he met me, had another attorney for a DWI. This client insisted on going to trial, but his attorney should have aggressively advised him against it based upon the facts. However, the client wanted his day in Court and he wanted to tell the Judge what happened. However, his story still had him guilty and it allowed the state to show that he broke his girlfriend's leg in the process. So, what should have normally been a Probation Before Judgment, turned into a Guilty with 12 months supervised probation.

We will never know all the facts or how this farmer's attorney advised him, but in the end I can guarantee you that the state would not be willing to pay the "trophy" fees that these "hunters" are willing to pay for these animals, and I don't think they should because that is taxpayer's money. If somebody wants to get into this business, they should know the risks and they should bear them, not the people.

As far as fenced hunting is concerned, I deplore that also. As far as herd management is concerned, if I owned some land I would plant some crops to help keep the deer around, but I wouldn't "play" with the genetics. Whatever I had, I would live with. Again, it is about hunting, not killing.

[Skyline]

Well that was pretty good Fabs.........you managed to skirt around just about everything I talked about, except for the fact that we all know there is a lawyer out there to take on just about any case.

You assume all game ranchers are about trophies.....and while that probably is the truth with whitetail, most of it started due to the oriental market for antlers in velvet....hence the large elk farms, reindeer, etc.

Many tried to establish meat markets for the game animals and that of course all fell through. Then the asian market for the antlers dropped as well. Many of the game farms turned to trophy hunting to try and raise funds. State and provincial agencies closed the doors to interstate and internatinal sales of breeding stock once CWD began to appear. Kind of like closing the doors on the barn after the horse is out.

I know jurisdictions where the government won't let them sell their animals, won't let them offer the animals to hunters, can't give them away for meat unless they are killed at an inspected slaughter plant....none of whom will take deer or elk any more. They are restricted to killing a handful for personal use.....but production exceeds use. They won't even let them just shoot the animals and bury them.

And by the way my uncle is a lawyer......I have friends that are lawyers...... and I was a cop for a long time so I got to spend several thousand hours in court over the years with them in both criminal and civil trials. I know all about them.

Sadly this topic seems to be painting all game farmers with the same brush. It is possible that the operator in this case is claiming they are worth what ever the trophy value was for the deer.....I don't now, but that is certainly not the case when you look at the overall picture of this industry. The producers are caught between a rock and hard place in many provinces and states.

Since you freely admit that you don't know the specifics of the case in question you are making a rather broad assumption when suggested that producers fight was "fostered by greed and profit."

It is probably a good idea to do a bit of research and learn something about an issue before making those kinds of statements......ones that lead people, who know nothing about producers who have elk and deer or bison, to believe that they are all motivated by the trophy industry and greed and profit. That simply is not the case.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

We are all motivated by profit, otherwise we wouldn't work. I started my own firm 4 years ago, and while there were many reasons for it (e.g., I couldn't stand the partners I was working for, I couldn't stand the back stabbing at the law firms I had worked at), one of the big reasons was to make a profit.

Sometimes, doing the right thing and making a profit do not go hand in hand. For instance, attorneys should not take cases that have absolutely no chance of winning, but you probably know how it goes when a starving or greedy attorney is looking at a paying client with a terrible case.

What I do know is that some animals in this guy's herd were diagnosed with CWD. The right thing to do would have been to turn the herd over and to fight about the reimbursement price afterward, but that didn't happen for 3 1/2 years.

I am not condemning all "producers," just this guy. Yeah, the industry is tough, but aren't all industries, especially agricultural ones.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I did a little more digging and found this story at the Associated Press. Towards the end, note that 40 or so deer from the preserve escaped through a breach in the fence before they could be killed. Hence, it appears that they are in the wild population now. I'll do some more digging to see if I can find anything regarding the Court proceedings, but I still say that my comment is right for this guy.

Sixty of the 76 deer killed at a Portage County game farm earlier this year tested positive for chronic wasting disease. It is the highest concentration of animals infected with the deadly ailment in a farm herd the state has found so far, officials said Friday.

Buckhorn Flats was the first game farm in the state to have a deer test positive for the disease, which causes the animals to grow thin and die. The state has wanted to eradicate the herd since shortly after the discovery in 2002, but the owner had fought those efforts in court.

Scientists are still not sure what causes the spread of chronic wasting disease. But they have said signs point toward transmission through contact among deer. Other studies suggest deer could contract it from the environment.

Donna Gilson, spokeswoman for the Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection, said information on the deer killed at the Portage County farm will aid researchers as they search for answers on how the disease is spread.

She said the state has found seven deer farms with at least one positive test for CWD. In most cases, the herds have been eradicated quickly, and only a handful of other deer from the herd test positive.

The state believes the 3 1/2-year court fight likely allowed the disease to spread through the herd so extensively.

"I think anybody would guess if we had destroyed these animals back in 2002 when we first found this case, we could have nearly as many (positives)," Gilson said.

Buckhorn Falls owner Stan Hall had fought the Department of Natural Resources in court on a series of issues since shortly after a buck on his farm testified positive. He did not immediately return a call from The Associated Press on Friday.

Hall's herd has been under quarantine since the first positive test in 2002. The latest results mean 82 deer have tested positive for the disease from his farm.

The 76 does and yearlings from the breeding herd on the farm were killed in January by U.S. Department of Agriculture shooters under an agreement with Hall. He will be compensated for the animals.

State officials are also trying to determine what happened to approximately 40 deer that were housed in the game preserve portion of the operation. A breach in the fence surrounding that part of the farm was found earlier this year, and officials have not been able to find any of the 40 deer housed in the preserve, which was in operation until last year.

Portage County Sheriff's Detective Gary Koehmstedt said authorities have no suspect and no motive so far. The DNR has an ongoing effort to kill deer within 2.5 miles of the farm.

Two does and two fawns that state officials believed wandered into the preserve from the wild were also killed and tested. CWD was not detected in those animals.

Other than Buckhorn Flats, CWD has been found in 12 white-tailed deer and one elk on six other Wisconsin farms.

[fabsroman]

Okay, here is another article from the Capital Times. It appears that he finally allowed them to shoot the deer even though a price had not yet been determined.

The vast majority of white-tailed deer killed on a Portage County farm earlier this year tested positive for chronic wasting disease.


The Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection reported in a written statement Friday that 60 of the 76 deer tested positive for the disease. The deer were killed on Jan. 17 by shooters from the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The department had an agreement with the owner of the farm, Stan Hall.

The Wisconsin Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory screened tissue samples, and the results were confirmed by the USDA National Veterinary Services Laboratory in Ames, Iowa, the department reported.

Hall's farm, known as Buckhorn Flats, is the site of most of the discovered cases of the disease in Wisconsin. The results bring to 82 the number of animals that tested positive for the disease on Hall's property.

Hall had fought the state's efforts to slay the herd since 2002, when the deer were diagnosed, but ultimately came to an agreement with the government.

Chronic wasting disease has also been found in 12 white-tailed deer and one elk on six other Wisconsin farms.

Hall also operated a hunting preserve on the property until last year. Four deer, two does and two fawns, killed in the old preserve were also tested, but the disease was not found in those animals.

Hall will receive state and federal payments for the 76 deer killed in the breeding pens, the department reported. The amount of compensation has not yet been determined.

Buckhorn Flats was the site of the first reported case of the disease among Wisconsin's farm-raised deer. It was found in a buck shot by a hunter in September 2002.

When the weather is warmer, the farm will be cleaned and disinfected, the department reported. Fences will keep wild deer from entering the farm.

[fabsroman]

This is from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. This one really makes him look bad. I'll continue looking for more though, so we can all make an informed decision on this guy. I love the part where hunters are put in tree stands and the deer are let out of their pens to be shot. The hunter even comments that there wasn't much sport involved and that it was more like shooting than hunting. All of this on 86 acres with 120 deer on it. Put 120 deer on 86 acres and I think my little sister could get one pretty easily, or for that matter, my wife who has barely even fired a gun.

Almond - For more than a decade, hunters from as far away as New York and the Deep South have come to Stan Hall's game preserve in Portage County to shoot big bucks.

Perched in tree stands, hunters have their pick of deer that Hall releases from pens for the shoot.

A longtime hunter, Jim Alford of Houma, La., came to Hall's farm, Buckhorn Flats, in October 2002 with his sons. The visit produced three large bucks.

"It's a real nice place," Alford recalled, though he added: "There is really not a lot of sport in it. It was the first time I had done it. It's more like shooting than hunting."

Now Hall's business could be ending. After the discovery of chronic wasting disease on his farm in September 2002, state officials fear it could spread from his fenced, 82-acre compound to the surrounding countryside.

So far, six of his deer have tested positive for the fatal disease, according to the state Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection. One was shot as recently as Dec. 4.

No sign of the disease has been found in wild deer in Portage County. But as the numbers mount on Hall's farm, the agriculture department has banned him from selling live deer and wants to kill all of his 120 deer, as state law permits.

Hall is challenging the state's order, signed on July 29, that would have dispatched a government team to methodically shoot the deer, lop off their heads and remove brain tissue to learn whether they carried the disease.

Hall and his attorney declined to comment for this article. But in previous interviews and in discussions with officials involved in his case, Hall has criticized the government's testing methods and said he is being made a scapegoat.

[fabsroman]

This is all the research I am going to do on this issue, because now it is pretty clear that this guy was all about greed and profit. This article is from the Wisconsin Journal. The gist of this article is that the breech that I mentioned earlier, was in the trophy buck pen, and it appears that all 40 bucks escaped, but nobody in the area has seen any of them. Giving this guy the benefit of the doubt, it is horrible that they escaped. Not giving this guy the benefit of the doubt (i.e., he smuggled them out), what exactly is he going to do with them? I guess he might be able to get semen from them, but I have no idea if CWD can be transferred that way. He definitely should not introduce them into another herd, or sell them to anybody for that matter, but that does not mean he will not. Something tells me that he finally decided to let DNR shoot all the deer because he knew that most of them were sick by now and if he waited much longer there would be no deer left to negotiate over. Let me know if you have any more doubts about this guy and I'll see what else I can find.

Article follows:

When hearing early this month that the government would pay the chronic wasting disease-infected Buckhorn Flats game farm in Portage County a maximum of $4,500 per deer, some of us grabbed our calculators to see how much 120 whitetails would fetch.

Wow! $540,000! That assumed a lot, of course, including the false belief that every deer - whether fawn or big-racked buck - was worth the maximum. Actually, with age being the gauge, most deer fall far short. The Department of Agriculture, Trade and Consumer Protection estimated about 80 does and fawns lived inside the game farm's 10-acre breeding area of four or five small pens. The agency also believed 40 bucks - some of trophy proportions - lived inside a separate 59-acre "shooting preserve."

No matter what the pay-off, we felt relieved. The case was finally ending. This dispute between the government and the game farm's operator, Stan Hall of Almond, started when CWD was discovered there in September 2002. As the sides wrangled for nearly 40 months, 16 more Buckhorn Flats deer tested positive for CWD.

In the past two weeks, however, our interest was again piqued. Funny how news of a mysterious hole in the preserve's fence can do that. The U.S. Department of Agriculture brought in its shooters Jan. 16, and they killed 76 whitetails inside Buckhorn's breeder pens. They also found three deer already dead, but didn't know what killed them.

Nothing strange there. That meshed with the pre-shootout estimate. But when USDA's shooters moved to the shooting preserve, they killed only four deer: two does and two fawns.

Where were all those big-antlered bucks that could have once enticed well-heeled clients to pay thousands of dollars for a trophy? Because the USDA, DATCP, Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources and Portage County Sheriff's Department are all investigating, officials are careful about talking. Most DNR employees must follow a "talking points" memo.

Other folks have resumed assuming, and fear CWD has a new beachhead. Maybe, but it's difficult to believe 40 bucks would all rush through a breeched fence. Captive deer typically don't flee far once they escape. They aren't POWs and this isn't "The Great Escape." For example, when the DNR audited game farms three years ago, conservation wardens cited many instances where escapees stayed near home and known food sources.

Just to make sure, government shooters monitored nearby bait piles Jan. 13 to 16 and killed only four deer outside the fence. No bucks went back inside, either. A DATCP check of bait piles inside the pens Monday revealed they hadn't been touched.

So where did the deer go, or how many were there to begin with? Among the state's Jan. 20 "talking points" there's this: "We don't know why we found only four deer in the (shooting) preserve. Hall estimated early last summer that 40 deer were in the preserve. We did suspect the number was lower because DATCP and USDA staff on the property reported seeing few animals and tracks."

How much lower? That's difficult to say. The 60-acre shooting preserve is wooded, deer hide, and no turnstile leads to the fence's hole.

Even so, if 40 bucks suddenly sprung from one spot, you'd think someone might notice. Granted, mature bucks are usually the first to shed their antlers each winter, but captive bucks tend to hold them longer than wild bucks.

Either way, locals aren't seeing anything unusual. "If those deer got out, we haven't seen them," said Greg Swan, owner of Swan Oil in Almond.

Swan Oil has been a DNR deer check station for 15 years. Swan said he registered fewer big bucks this year than in 2004.

"A bunch of guys have been in here talking about it, and many of them have (infrared) game cameras in the woods," Swan said. "The only big buck I've heard about has been around a couple of years, so he didn't escape from there."

Maybe this picture will become clearer in time, but the only thing now certain is that Buckhorn Flats' indemnity payouts will be a bit lower than all those premature calculations.

[Skyline]

Well there is no doubt from what you have found, that this guy was hard to get along with.

As for the greed part........well that still remains to be seen. I guess I can liken it to a farmer who is about to have a $20,000 prize angus bull put down because some of the cows in the herd tested positive for TB.........but state, provincial or federal regulations are only going to pay $1200 per animal.

He was obviously running a hunting preserve with some of his production animals...............but where have we seen that before?
Ever heard of the 'Sanctuary' or some of the others in the midwest?

Sadly we are missing the point of all of this by focusing on the one guy and the disease in his herd. Fingers should be pointing at state and provincial wildlife and agriculture agencies.

There are some very basic questions that should be asked:

l1. Why did they allow the farming of 'native' species in the first
place?

- they might be behind fence, but animals do escape from time to time and game farm animals can still visit throught the fence and touch noses, swap soliva, and wild bucks and bulls routinely try to fight with the farmed animals through the fence during the rut.

2. Why did they approve hunt farms to begin with, especially of native species?

- this has been nothing but a can of worms from the very beginning. Hunters claim they hate hunting behind fences, yet there seems to be thousands of them willing to pay for it. If the government thought it was not ethical they should have denied licences for it in the first place.

3. Once the problems with TB and CWD became obvious, why did they not pass a bill to kill this industry, pay the farmers a reasoanble buy out package and get rid of the industry completely?

- Could it be money? Instead of admitting their mistakes and dealing with the issue they hope instead to pass regulations that are so restrictive they will eventually 'starve' the producers out of existence.

History is filled with examples of grave errors that have been made by allowing exotic introductions and or the commercial farming and inter- provincial/state/international trade in captured or farm raised wildlife.

They never seem to learn............................

Where I live the province use to allow hunt farms. Real hunters screamed about it and the provincial wildlife federation eventually forced the government to ban 'fenced' hunting. The velvet antler market is weak, they are not allowed to sell uninspected elk meat.....ie it is ok to buy an elk tag and go and kill a wild elk, but you can't go and buy an elk from a farmer, shoot it and take it home. If you want an elk it would have to be killed at a licenced facility where it would get inspected (but not the wild elk that has been visiting through the fence with the farm elk)...............however, because of the CWD and TB issues, most abattoirs will not accept cervids for slaughter. The land owner can only kill 3 elk a year for his own personal consumption. The elk can not be sold or moved to other elk producers property or to the next province which does allow fenced hunting.

Bottom line.......our governments open the doors and allow these practices in the first place, then when things go wrong, they back away and leave the producers holding the bag. There is something fundamentally wrong about this.

No I do not have a game farm................I raise horses and cattle.
I do not agree with game farms and never have.......but I still do not agree with the way both the US and Canadian governments have been handling the problems with these facilities.

[Skyline]

One other thing you probably haven't heard about Fabs is that the fish and wildlife boys in some other jurisdictions have used farms like these as a perfect place to study the disease transmission.

Lets face it...........they still know very little about it and in a few instances they are using infected herds to try and get a handle on how the disease spreads.

Double game fences are needed to make any of this completely safe and avoid escapees and through fence contamination with indigenous game animals.

That is the end of this topic for me......on to brighter things.

[fabsroman]

Well put, I will agree with what you have said about the government. However, industries usually start without regualtion and regulation usually comes afterward when a government finds out about the industry and decides to regulate it. I seriously doubt that the government had game farm regulations in place before the first game farm was created. The regulations were more likely the result of the government trying to regulate already existing game farms.

The issues caused by CWD are probably the same type of issues that we could see with the Avian Flu. If it hits the poultry farms, should the birds be destroyed immediately? Probably! Do you think the government should reimburse the poultry farm owners for it? Probably not.

We can even take this a step further. Should the government be held responsible for damage caused to a farmer's crop by wild deer? We do have that issue here in Maryland. The government gives the farmer crop damage permits, but it doesn't pay for the damage caused by the animals.

Now, here is an interesting thought, could some type of insurance be purchased by the producers just in case their herds came down with some type of disease?

The government cannot fix everything. Government should pass laws to protect the public at large. That is probably what the regulations against the producers are for. Same thing with the Code of Ethics I deal with. Granted, governments also want to foster business to keep the economy going. The hunting business in Wisconsin brings in $1 billion a year to the state. How would it affect the state if its entire deer herd came down with CWD? Is it worth the monetary loss that this guy is going to sustain? How many other people throughout the state, and possibly the nation, could be affected by this one person's actions?

I look at the bigger picture, not just the small picture of how it affects this one guy, or this one industry, but the nation as a whole. After we find the first case of avian bird flu in a poultry farm in the United States, do you think we should hem and haw for 3 1/2 years trying to figure out the worth of the poultry, or should they be exterminated immediately and the monetary issue determined later? Do we wait to see if this disease might spread to other poultry farms, or do we exterminate the birds at once?

If tort reform would help the nation as a whole, which I think it will, do we worry about the personal injury attorneys that will be out of a job because they did not diversify, or do we pass tort reform laws that help the entire nation? There will always be a small group that government cannot appease, but such is life is it is for the greater good of the people.

[Steverino]

I spent several years hunting whitetail deer in Portage County and am rather sick about the prospects of a goodly amount of potentially affected deer effecting the wild herd from this game ranch.

While I am personally not usually against game ranches (for meat and or breeding purposes), it sounds like this particular guy was looking out for himself only. It also sounds as if the Wisconsin DNR took the appropriate steps to nip this particular issue in the bud from the get-go. Everybody wants to blame the government for everything. I'm surprised that someone has not blamed the current Bush administration for this recent outbreak!

Since deer are creatures of habit and are naturally lazy, (I typically bend the fence wire down near a shooting lane each year during hunting season-with his permission, of course and watch the procession begin of deer walking) it is not uncommon to see many deer discover a new "shortcut" or in this case "breech." in the fence. What is hard to believe is that 40 deer have not been located this time of year- leading me to suspect that some of this herd (probably the larger racked specimens) were moved by the ranch owner.

I'm all for making a profit and our capitalistic free market that is despised throughout the rest of the world and makes us the Great Satan of the universe-just don't mess with my hunting land to make your damn money!

[Skyline]

Well I do not know about all of the states, but in virtually every province I know of it was and is illegal to keep wildlife in captivity, meaning native wildlife, without a permit. In each and every case it took special regulations to allow the game farms to exist in the first place and that was through consultation between the agriculture and fish and wildlife boys. In most cases deer and elk farms required very strict inspections by fish and game personel before they could be populated.

They didn't just appear up here in and then the government get involved..........it was illegal in the first place. So, the government was directly involved in approving it and both the provincial agriculture departments and fish and wildlife departments established the regulations under which they could exist.

I seriously doubt that it was a free for all in all of the US states that have or had game farms...............rarely do the fish and game departments look favorably upon game farming of native species in the first place. They see too many loop holes for illegal activity in wildlife.

Somthing to consider.

Also, while you use it as an example, Avian flu is a hot bed of current media hype and is focused on the possiblity of a flu pandemic.............as in lots of dead people. Not really in the same ballpark as CWD, bovine TB, or even Mad Cow for that matter.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

I think it might actually be the same in Maryland, but I cannot remember. I know it is illegal to keep wild game in captivity, but I do not know if a person needs to apply for a permit to keep domesticated waterfowl or livestock even if it is a native species. I'll try to do some research on this.

I hear you about the avian bird flu, but from what I hear, it is rather tough for a person to get the flu from this thing. Kind of like the whole West Nile virus issue a couple of years ago. The media must be running out of things to report.

[Skyline]

Yes....the media sure can manipulate things. The west nile virus is a very good example.........I keep hoping I would just get bit by the right (wrong) mosquito so that I can get it over with and quit worrying about it.

Even with the damn horses it costs us about $30 a head per year to give them their shots and their is no guarantee that the vaccine actually works.