question on how to find the right load

[scooterman27006]

i have been reloading many different calibers for years and really without ever finding the "perfect" load - well i found this forum with google and it looks pretty good and other than a few friends and lots of books i really have a ton of questions but my first is this -- for the long time reloaders - what method or steps do you do in order to find this perfect load for a gun- now before you get started lol i shoot and reload from 204 to 270 well (204 , 220swift,22-250, 223, 243, and some for 270 and 30.06) i love my 17's even though i use factory stuff lol--anyhow i have tried to find loads for all these at one time and well i just get disgusted because one time the load will show some promise then i load several and they never shoot as good as i thought they would -now i guess this is reloading but i feel sure there are others that reload and have better luck than me and i just want to know how they do it lol - now to give you a little info on how i manage - i do clean my barrels good and i do like to use moly i am a believer in it so i use it i keep records and will gladly post what i have found so far for these calibers - until i read how the pros do it i have started doing this - i am going to start with one gun at a time and just shoot that one with different loads until i come up with something - i have a lot of contender and encore barrels in longer lengths and i will try to start with them first - my latest is the worst to figure out and i will post something on it seperate look for post on 204 - looking forward to reading in the forum

[srab]

scooterman>>

Welcome to Huntchat! Lots of good information here!

I don't claim to be an expert, but what I do is start with
a bullet, usually from Sierra or Hornady, that has a
reputation for reasonable accuracy. Next, I'll research
the powder recommendations for a specific cartridge,
information that you can always find here by simply
asking. Then, I'll start with a load well below maximum
for the particular powder I've chosen. I'll load 3 rounds.
I'll then bump the charge and load 3 more. I'll bump it
again and load 3 more. Next, I'll choose another powder
and do the same. I will often pick a 3rd powder and do
the same.

When I head to the range, then, I've got, in this case,
nine different loads using three different powders.
I'll fire a "fouling round," usually using a factory load.
I'll then shoot the loads I've prepared, typically keeping
each powder on a different target. I'm not so much
looking for which 3 shot group is the most accurate as
which powder shoots the different loads to the same
point of impact, give or take.

If I find a powder that shows some promise in this regard,
I'll work up more loads with that powder, bumping the
charge gradually towards max or even supra-max.
I'll shoot this time over a chronograph for sure, though
often I'll even take the chronograph on the first trip.

If the powder continues to show promise this second
time out, I should be close. If not, I'll look for another
powder and start over.

With a promising powder, it is at this point that I may
start playing with seating depth in an attempt to eek
out as much accuracy as possible. It is also at this point
that I'll try perhaps a different bullet.

When all is said and done, I can usually find a load that
will shoot with a respectable degree of consistency,
using a bullet designed for the task at hand, driven at
a velocity appropriate for the cartridge. If it's not
exactly shooting little cloverleafs, though, I have a tendency
to revisit the project each subsequent year.

[scooterman27006]

srab i appreciate the welcome and fast response - this is the first forum on shooting for me and i am excited about doing some posting and reading - i have kind of lol done exactly what you said except well ok im gonna start with the latest addition - its the ruger 204 - now i bought a remington 700 in this caliber and had a little trigger work done on it - now i will mention i bought a 204 encore barrel heavy 26" now i have only tried varget powder so far only because its the only one for the loads i saw - well i tried 24 25 26 g of varget and so far 26 shows to be a little better - now as far as col - its recommended 2.25 and on some 2.30 that is where i have lots of questions - col recommended is way too short and i have a gauge to measure and the encore and remington both need to be about 2.33and the encore 2.37 - well i had to go with a 50 g berger bullet (18.00) a box lol in order to get enough col - the hornady bullets wouldnt go in the brass far enough to get the length -way too short- so with the 50 grain and running the col out more than suggested im still getting not so great groups and i just dont understand it - just so you can get an idea of what im using - varget and berger 50 gr LTB winchester primers and once fired brass from the many hornady factory stuff i had to shoot to start with - the 32 and 40 g stuff was all over the place by the way thats why i wanted to play with the col and see what happened - now i can understand one off the wall every now and then but this is rediculous and thats why i am gonna enjoy this forum- now as far as the scopes one has a really nice weaver fixed power 36 T series scope and the other has a cheap tasco target scope but it has proven itself on another gun so it should be ok - now you see why i have questions - tell me as far as col how much should i deduct from the actual length or should it touch the lands - not really sure but i have read you want the bullet as close as possible without touching - thanks for the info and i got lots more to post on lol scoot

[Rocky Raab]

Hi scooter, and welcome.

First you have to tell us what you mean by "best" load. I know, that sounds like a dumb question. But one guy might define it as the one that shoots the smallest group, another guy might say it's the one that's the fastest, and that gal over there might say it's the one with the cheapest components or the least recoil or the one that ruins the least amount of fur. Or simply one that always feeds and fires.

You get the idea.

Regardless, there are as many ways to experiment at this as there are possible load combinations - and that's an infinite number because as soon as you discover one, you run out of components and the new batch won't shoot quite the same.

Sigh....

[scooterman27006]

lol ok best load to me is hitting what i am shooting at and i dont mean just to the left or right i mean in a dime at a 100 yards lol i look for the tightest group and twist on the scope afterwards but both 204 are - and i dont understand how groups are graded - but the groups i have now are within a 5" sqaure at a 100 yards but i want the holes touching in the middle and i know or i feel like these two guns can do it - i can do it maybe not every shot with factory hmr 17 stuff i know it ought to do it with homemade stuff and a 204 i just cant figure out what its going to take and i am shooting off of bench rest stuff on a windless day and i have had others to shoot the guns with same results- these are both new barrels but they have had the snot cleaned out of them and about 150 rounds shot through them each so i should be getting somewhere by now

[HPBTMTCH]

Scooterman, the .204 is sometimes a tough cartridge to work with. Whenever the powder charge and the bullet get close to being the same weight, it`s a pretty touchy affair. Anyway, what do the groups look like ? Do you have fliers ? Is that 3, or 5 round groups ? Did you say groups are less than 5 inches from center to center ? Thats quite large if thats what you mean, a good group for a varmint caliber is 3 rounds, center to center, less than half inch apart. Take a flashlight and look in the end of the bore after you clean it, do you see any copper ? Are you using moly coated bullets now ? Remember unless you have a stainless barrel, the moly will rust things up unless you clean it after each day you shoot it. And it could be that neither barrel cares for varget, my first suggestion is try a different powder. Hodgdon offers the 4 powder mini jars at the same price as a regular pound, you might try those.

[scooterman27006]

hp i never knew about the powder pack - where do you get those from - and yes i do use moly and i never knew that it will rust the barrel - does it just hold humidity you think - anyhow yes i think i need to try several different other than varget just havent had the chance to get it - and as far as the 5 in lol yes 5 inches in between the outside shots lol yea im ashamed to own up to it but its true thats why im posting lol - and yes i have a flyer every now and then - if ya get a chance read my post on the problem with the COL being too short - it just kills me that i can get at least a group out of either one of these barrels - well my dad insisted on getting this 204 thing and i really would like to come up with something for him but then again this is nothing but an expensive hobby for me to tinker with but i love it but it messes with my sleeping at night knowing i cant get either to shoot like they should - ok now i am gone to clean all my barrels free of moly lol thanks for the info too

[HPBTMTCH]

Scooterman, the bullet should be seated so that the base, and the bottom of the neck are about the same, but i have had a few rifles that shot best when just barely seated into the case, but it`s probably best not to go more than half way out. Ask rocky about bullet seating. The 700 is limited to magazine lenght, but the encore being single shot is not. Moly coated bullets seem to shoot best when touching the lands, and even jammed a few thousanths. Another problem with moly bullets is inconsistent bullet pull if you don`t clean the inside of the case necks every time before you load them. Make sure they are nice and shiny. You can get the sample powder pack (i forget what hodgdon calls them) anywhere you buy hodgdon powder. They may have to order it, just make sure it comes with their regular order so you don`t get hit with the $15 haz mat charge. I don`t know if it`s a reaction to the barrel steel, or moisture or what, but it will rust if you let it set for a few days, that i know. However, it does`nt seem to bother stainless.

[scooterman27006]

so hp i can chamber the bullets and it will be fine if i have to push a little to get the bolt or barrel closed - the reason for the moly - seems that almost every bullet i have shot in most calibers - the moly really calms down how the rifle shoots and even in this case the 204 calmed down a lot but it sure does have room for improvement- plus i am really bad to get a barrel hot lol impatient i guess plus a lot of the barrels i have now are fairly new except a couple of old favorites - i can shoot right outside the back door so i dont have to go to a range or anything so i shouldnt be in a hurry- and i usually just push a patch through every 10 rounds or so to clean it and that has worked on the others - i cant figure out though if the factory stuff is so short in these two guns if that is part of my problem and i need to make them much longer even if they chamber hard and dont have much bullet in the brass or if i just need to try different powders since my bullet choices are very limited - with the 204 being fairly new i guess is part of my problem also - not many 20 cal bullets available that i can make longer - i have a little time this weekend and if i can get my hands on some different powder i will load a few and see what happens might even try some with the 2.25 and 2.3 col and see what happens

[HPBTMTCH]

Scooterman, moly works well when trying to tell how far out to seat the bullet into the lands, much better than a magic marker. Seat 3 rounds so you can just see a mark on them when you pull them out of the chamber, then if you have a way to measure the olgive of the bullets, seat the next group a couple thousanths farther out, and see if it makes a difference, keep in mind, the farther the bullet is jammed, the load may make more pressure. If the bullet is jammed into the lands real hard, and is seated long, it may pull out of the case when you remove it, so either use an empty unprimed case, or at least hold the muzzle up to avoid having powder everywhere. Neck tension and moly is also an issue, if you don`t have a bushing die set, take the .204 decapping plug off and use a .17 caliber, or deprime the case and then resize it with the stem removed, and see if that helps. Are you cleaning moly correctly? Use a couple patches of kroil, followed by a patch of JB paste short stroked though the bore, then 2 more kroil patches, and then a few dry patches. The patch will still be a little black, but you are`nt supposed to remove all the moly, unless you see there`s fowling underneath. Now you mentioned you shoot a lot, heat is bad. If the barrel feels warm to the touch, the groups are likely to start going away. Are the first 2 or 3 rounds from a cold barrel a good group, and then things go down hill ? Not very many rifles i know of shoot well if the barrel is hot. If you can`t hold on to the barrel with your bare hand, you are doing a lot of damage, and you need to quit for a while. I run compressed air through the bore, (as long as it does`nt have moisture in it), and wrap it with a wet towl if I`m in a REAL hurry. But it`s better to do somthing else for a while and let it cool on it`s own.

[Cal Sibley]

Hello scooterman,

Experience is probably the best teacher here. As far as powders go they pretty much fall into groups. The smaller calibers usually perform best with powders like IMR & H4198, VihtaVouri 130, 133,
Varget, Rel-7 and several others. What bullets will shoot best is related to your rifling twist. For example if you have a .22-250 with a 1 in 14" twist, 55gr. bullets and lighter will usually perform best. Experience will teach you this, and it doesn't have to be painful. I use Sierra and Nosler reloading manuals because they list accuracy loads for each bullet they make, and they aren't too far off from being the best. Once you arrive at a fairly accurate load it's up to you to fine tune it with slight variations in powder dosage and bullet seating depth. This of course is in addition to finding the powder and bullets your rifle prefers. Seating depth is a different ball game altogether. Many bullets like being seated into the lands while others prefer a jump. Only experimenting can tell you this. Each rifle is an entity unto itself, and often quite contrary at that. Proper bench techniques can also play a part in how well you shoot, right down to how you hold the rifle and how you breathe. I've been reloading for over 30 years and wouldn't dare to say I know it all or even most of it. But, it's enjoyable to the max. Have fun and best wishes.

Cal - Montreal