when is it "ok"?

[model 70]

home protection or otherwise. i've been racking this over in my brain alot lately. not sure why. when is it ok to pull the trigger? do they have to flash the gun? maybe a knife? not only do i fear the leagl issue but to me and most others, this is a BIG deal. you're quite possibley taking another persons life. i mean, i'm sure alot of home invasions, attacks and self defense shootings could be solved other ways since the attacker doesn't always have a gun. then again, if you wait to see a weapon it could be too late and i'll be damned if i'm gonna go out in my own home with a gun in my posession without taking a shot or two. what are your thoughts?

[TreeDoc]

As Masaad Ayoob wrote..."In the Gravest Extreme"

You're a Californian, it can make a difference State to State. It is a complicated issue but I'll give you my best uncomplicated answer that might work in general terms. You may use lethal force anytime that you feel "your life" is threatened and you have exhausted your ability to remove yourself from the situation. If a 5'6" 105 pound boney swimsuit model clad in a thong bikini comes at you with her bare hands threatening to kill you, it's not likely that lethal force would be a reasonable defense. Now that I think about it, it might be sort of fun wrastlin' with her! On the other side of the coin, if Dredrick, a 260# heavyweight boxer type has you cornered and is threatening to kill you, you think he'll make good on his offer and you're a meager 6'0, 160# computer nerd from HuntChat with no way out, you could likely drill him with a double tap and have a reasonable defense. My examples are extreme simply to point out what is or isn't a threat.

A threat by a weapon is a different story and perhaps a bit more cut and dry but that depends on many variables still. Regardless of how justified, in this day and age you will likely be tried for your "crime" so a good Criminal Defense Attorney is paramount.

[petey]

My wife and I just had this discussion, and luckily my brother-in-law is a State Cop so he could give us a better understanding.

I pretty much said, if a person is in my house without reason to be (meaning he's broken in) then I'm shooting. Not neccessarily to kill mind you.

My wife said no way, he'll take you to court, and end up taking everything we own just b/c that's how great the judicial system works around these parts.

So my brother-in-law's answer was as long as the intruder is placing you in a threatening situation (maybe life threatening). Not sure of the exact wording since it was my wife talking to him and her relaying the message to me.

Basically I got it as, as long as they had a weapon and where threatening you or your family shoot them. And his response to where to shoot them?? Right in the ol goodie box as to make sure they never reproduce again

Either way, I wouldn't be letting an intruder (armed or not) leave my house once he's in.

[Andy L]

The way I understand it, in MO, if you are in fear of your life or someone elses life.

If its in your own home, there is even less qualification. If someone is in your home unwanted and refuses to leave, its going to be hard to prove that you were not protecting yourself and/or family.

I was also told by one of the attnys I work for what to say and do. Since there is always a chance I may have to actually shoot someday, god forbid.

He said to make sure the shot counts, one story is better than two. He said to call the police immediately and have the gun laying on the ground in front of you with your hands visible when they arrive. You should only say, I was in fear of my life (or someone elses), I shot for the mass to stop the threat, I didnt intend to kill him and I want my attorney. Dont say anything else. Not Im tired, want a drink, nothing. Until your attorney arrives and you can get in a private place.

Now, Im not giving legal advice, but that is what I would do should it ever happen. That came from the best defense atty around here and one of the best in the state, from what Im told. I know the prosecutors and cops hate the SOB, so he must be pretty damned good.....

Andy

Petey,
I didnt read your post too well. I dont know if I would shoot if I werent intending to kill. The way I understand it, you can count on a lawsuit when you shoot someone. Some long lost relative that is out of crack money, if nothing else, will find some ACLU lawyer or something to take the case and you will be sued. And maiming or wounding does two things. It leaves another account of the incident and it raises the question of how bad the threat actually was that brought you to shoot.

I know that if someone is in my home that is trying to harm me or my family, the only way they would be wounded is if I miss.

Oh and one more thing, in MO, you can shoot to protect lives, but not property. If someone is stealing your car and there is no immediate threat to you, you cant shoot. And, if you have stopped the threat, such as someone just beat the snot out of you and your laying on the ground, but they are backing away, you cant shoot. Legally. The threat is over.

[gd357]

I got into a discussion like this with one of my friends who happens to carry. He said that the only way he would ever use his gun is when human life was threatened. To paraphrase, things can be replaced but people cannot. That's his perspective. I still haven't completely formulated what would constitute a shooting situation, and that's one of the reasons why I don't currently carry.

gd

[Jack]

Andy has a good point- defend life, not your TV set.
Regulations vary from state to state, and it's important to know what the criteria is in your state.
I think in your house has a lower standard of 'ok to shoot' in most states than outside the home. Outside the home, for example on the street, in a parking lot, a question a DA is going to raise right away is "could you have run, rather than shot?".

[fabsroman]

Yep, laws vary from state to state, and if you carry in your state you had better make sure you know exactly what the self defense laws are.

Maryland observes the duty to retreat doctrine along with the castle doctine. A person has a duty to retreat from any situation before he uses deadly force, except in his home (i.e, his castle) wherein he is allowed to use deadly force.

Also, deadly force can be used to defend others, but you had better be really sure about who you are shooting and that they aren't the ones being accosted. For the most part, unless you know the person who is about to lose his/her life, do not shoot the other guy.

If the threat is neutralized, you cannot kill the person. If the person starts retreating when you pull the gun, you cannot kill them unless it is in your house. Quite honestly, I believe that the law should be that no questions are asked for killing a burglar in your home. The reason we have as much crime as we do is because the poor sheep cannot defend themselves.

I have run a bunch of scenarios through my head. If somebody comes into my house at night, you can bet that I will be pulling the trigger as soon as I identify that they aren't somebody I know. I will not be waiting to see if they have a gun or allowing them to retreat and regroup with a possible buddy just to come back and ambush me.

If it is during daylight hours and I have the drop on them, I will check to see if they have a gun.

Essentially, I plan on calling the police department should anybody break in and then staying on the 4th floor of my place with the handgun in hand. There is only one door up to that level, so that is the only spot I need to worry about and there are plenty of places for me to coverup behind. I definitely will not be the one getting surprised.

[Andy L]

Fabs, I have already thought that through and acted on it. They will be armed. Whether before or after the incident, they will be armed.

In my business, I am constantly thinking about this stuff and thats why I talked to an atty. But, I was also taught alot of it in my CCW class and another law enforcement class that I took that is required for bondsman. Its good stuff to know.

Basically, if your on the street and some guy jumps you and beats your ass good, if you can get a bullet in him while hes in the act, your good. But after the threats gone, no go.

And, always be aware, you WILL be sued. Cop, private citizen, it dont matter, shoot someone and you will be sued.

Andy

[model 70]

what about stabbing? not all of us carry a gun around but the majority of us do carry knives.

[fabsroman]

Stabbing would be considered deadly force, so it would fall under the same rules. I think a baseball bat might too if it isn't a 100 lb woman swinging the bat. Same would go for golf clubs probably. The standard used in Maryland is "deadly force." A person cannot use deadly force unless deadly force is being used against them, with the exception of the person's home.

[gregarat]

At work, even off duty. If someone brandishes a gun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife and billie, within nine feet of me. I will shoot them in the chest. I will also shoot to protect myself or another person from death or serious bodily harm, trying to prevent a forcible felony (such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping).
By Florida law I cannot give a warning shot, or shoot to wound. At work I cannot cock the hammer for a single action shot, double action only.

I might get some "wiggle room" at work, cause my work place is covered under the Castle Doctrine.

But like Andy said, I can probably expect a law suite. Covering my behind is extremely important at work.

[fabsroman]

Gergarat,

How is the move to Florida panning out? If I am not mistaken, you have been down there a year or more now.

What kind of work do you do? Are you and LEO, security guard, or is this one of those "I could tell you but I would have to kill you" types of jobs?

[gregarat]

I moved down here in the beginning of March. Everything is going great! This is a very beautiful, and unique town. It beats the living heck out of "Sorryexcuse" N.Y.

I work both armed and unarmed security jobs. I get payed a little bit more for armed security. Which is dull, as you can probably imagin. I also work for a small "mom & pops" unarmed outfit. The unarmed is way more interesting. Not only do I get a break on my rent, working unarmed. But working apartment complexes is exiting to say the least. One minute I'm dealing with a out of control party, full of mostly spoiled brats. The next gorgeous college girls (wich there is a rich abundance of) are flirting, even hitting on me. Its very surreal. Bing 28yrs and looking 21yrs is a huge advantage when dealing with these kids.

I have to wait a year before going back to school. Unless I want pay double tuition. As you might guess my major is Criminal Justice. As of right now I'm not interested in becoming a LEO, especially not here in Gainesville. Don't get me wrong, I have tons of respect LEOs. These cops are just under trained, and it truly is a "good old boy" system. I see most members of the Gainesville police as tax collectors. Pluse from what I hear, the D.A. couldn't even convict Charles Manson. Ive been seriously been considering becoming a Private Detective or even something else in the private sector.

One thing that's has been bugging me is I'm going to miss out on hunting, this year. I might need to take another hunters safety course, for Florida. Pulse working two jobs is taking up all of my time. I really wish there was more than 24 hours in a day.

Isn't your brother here in Gainesville, if I'm not mistaken? If your ever visit, drop me a line. It would be cool to meet you in person .

[brandoneh297]

Every state is completely different in their regulations. Texas law states that if someone enters into your home, you must retreat to the farthest room you can to avoid confrontation. Colorado has the "make my day law" where it states that you have full rights to use leathal force if you feel your life is threatened in any way. If you live in California or New Jersey you're probably required to make them dinner and invite them to sleep over. Ok that last one I made up but the other two are real and I'm probably not that far off with California and New Jersy, haha. As far as having to go to court for it, it's going to happen 99% of the time so you might as well prepare for it. As long as you went by what your state requires you will be ok though. In reality you have to weigh going to court with how big of a threat they are. Even if you have the legal right to use lethal force, you might want to try another option to aviod legal battles. Lastly, if you are going to fire your weapon you had better make it to kill, becuase wounding makes a much, much bigger mess for going to court.

[gregarat]

As far as getting a law suite goes.

I would much rather get tried by twelve, than carried by six.