Pharmacuticals/free market/rant

[PJgunner]

Wouldn't it be great? About as likely as pushing gas prices down by using our muscles (walking more?)


Think About This One!!!

A Car Company can move it's factories to Mexico and claim it's a free market.

A Toy Company can out source to a Chinese subcontractor and claim it's a free market.

A Shoe Company can produce its shoes in Southeast Asia and claim it's a free market.

A major Bank can incorporate in Bermuda to avoid taxes and claim it's a free market.

We can buy HP Printers made in Mexico .
We can buy shirts made in Bangladesh .
We can purchase almost anything we want from 20 different countries.

BUT, heaven help the senior citizens who dare to buy their Prescription Drugs from a Canadian or Mexican pharmacy. That's called un-American and illegal and our politicians want to Stop it!

And you think the Pharmaceutical Companies don't have a powerful lobby? Think again!

Forward this to every person you know over age 50. It is an interesting thought. Maybe this is an issue that should come up in the next election!

Paul B.






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[fabsroman]

I completely agree that the pharmaceutical companies have a very strong lobby. However, I have debated this matter with my wife, a pharmacist, and one of her points is that there is a lack of control over prescriptions filled in Canada. Just to practice in Maryland, my wife had to pass a Maryland pharmacy law exam. She had to do the same thing for Virginia.

This post is kind of ironic. We want our drugs to be as cheap as possible, so we are willing to out source them to have the prescriptions filled. I bet you are even willing to have their manufacture out sourced too. Then, we have people like me complaining on this board how many American jobs are lost to over seas. THIS IS THE REASON.

We wanted cheaper cars, jeans, radios, clothes, so they are made over seas. Then, we wonder where the jobs are going.

By the way, I think this is a catch 22. I honestly think the drug companies are pushing the envelope with profits, just like the gas companies. However, if the drug companies invent something that prolongs your life by 20 years, how much do you think they should be able to make on it? What is your life worth. What do the additional profits allow the drug companies to do as far as research and development are concerned?

Yep, the drug companies paid $19 Billion in advertising in 2005, and I have a serious issue with that. People will argue that it makes the public aware of the drugs out there so they can ask their doctors about it when they visit. However, I look at it the other way. People should visit their doctor because they have a problem, and the doctor should recommend the drug. Of course, my wife says that doctors barely even know what drugs are out there, which is probably true with all the stuff I see on TV and hear about from my wife, her parents, and her friends.

What I find really amazing is how many people are on prescription drugs. My in-laws are visiting and they have a drug cocktail every night. They are only 60 and 55. I have seen their drug bag and it looks like a pharmacy. On the other hand, my parents are 65 and 64, and they despise taking drugs. My mom had high blood pressure and high cholesterol a couple of years ago, and the doctor prescribed drugs for her. However, she decided to try exercising on a regular basis and eating right, and everything is fine now and she didn't need to take the drugs. We (i.e., Americans) like a quick fix. We don't like to cook so we eat McDonald's. We don't like to exercise and eat health, so we take drugs.

If you have read about or heard about the pharmaceutical bill that was recently passed in Congress, and the manner in which it was passed, you would be sick to your stomach. Of course, the liberal media was doing the reporting, so who knows what is true.

[PJgunner]

Fabs. I think you miss the point. Why should drugs be higher here than in foreign countries? Granted, our society is a lot more litigous, but really. Take Viagra for example. It's jumped up to $11.00 a pop at Walmart. My insurance won't even pay for it, so guess who pays through the nose. Some of my other meds have $10 copays, others a $25 copay and two others a $40 copay. It all runs about $300 a month in copays, and that's just me. That doesn't count my wife's meds which kicks in another $175 a month. That takes a meaty chunk out of my retirement pay along with what I pay for my health insurance. If I was on medicare, we couldn't even get some of meds we require.
I suppose I shouldn't gripe as I at least have decent insurance, but it gripes my gut in a big way that because of the cost of prescriptions and health care, my wife and I cannot enjoy the retirement we worked out tails off to have.
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

PJ,

I didn't miss the point. We all want to live forever, but that costs money. That is just plain and simple. Right before I was born, my grandfather was diagnosed with a heart condition and he needed surgery. Problem was that he didn't have insurance and he wasn't an American citizen, so he merely went back to Italy and died one day riding his bike because he never was able to afford the surgery. To this day, my father keeps on telling me that he wished his father had lived to see me because he really would have enjoyed being around me and hunting and fishing with me. Yep, it breaks my heart and I kept telling myself that I was going to try my hardest to make sure that my dad got to spend some time with his grandchildren. Mission accomplished last week.

Now, I look at all the meds that my in-laws take and I wonder about some of them. My father in-law had a heart attack about 5 years ago, but he was also a heavy smoker (i.e., 2 packs a day). They complain about their med costs too. Kind of like a guy that complains about transplant meds that he needs to pay for because of a liver transplant needed because of his heavy drinking.

We Americans are terrible about our health and then we want modern medicine to come to the rescue for all of us. How many people suffer heart attacks because they don't watch what they eat and they don't exercise? How many Americans have lung cancer because they decided to smoke even though they knew it would kill them? How many Americans have health problems because they drink too much?

Anyway, back to the point. Is there any difference in the manner that prescriptions are filled from Canada versus in the US? Is there any potential health risk from having prescriptions filled outside the country? I used to know the answer to these questions, but I flushed them out of my head. I'll try to remember to ask my wife about them at dinner tonight.

As far as the Viagra is concerned, that is just another quality of life medication, and not a do or die medication. I'm not crying about anybody who cannot afford their Viagra. Maybe they never should have spent R&D money on that anyway, because we never would have missed it if it weren't around.

Health care is a serious issue in this country, but I just feel as though it is because of our lifestyle. I went to Italy in 2001 for a 3 week vacation, and I never noticed any obese people. It was insane.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I brought this subject up at dinner and there are a couple of reasons that prescriptions from Canada and elsewhere are cheaper.

1. Any medicine sold in the US must be manufactured according to FDA procedure, which is probably more costly than doing it another way.

2. Canada has socialized medicine, so the cost of pharmaceuticals are set at a certain level. This set price applies to everybody, even US citizens that cross over to Canada to buy the drugs. The same goes in Australia. Australia has a cap on drug prices according to my wife and the industry is subsidized by the government.

Personally, I do not want socialized medicine. Why should I be taxed even more for people that do not take care of themselves. Kind of like me having to pay for people that decide to live in a hurricane zone or in New Orleans.

[huntingvet]

I gotta say I'm with Fabs on this one.

In this country we have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. There are no other entitlements, just opportunities. Health care, although it can affect length and quality of life, is not necessary to live. Our government does subsidize basic health care for the under-priviledged which does include some prescription medications, but it doesn't cover, nor should it, advanced novel therapies. Just my $0.02.

[jl1966]

Iam sorry, I dont see it. Health care should not be a business. People have health problems, many through simple genetics or some reasons that we just dont underestand yet. Look at Lance Armstrong, I would say he has taken care of himself, yet he had cancer. He luckily is a millionaire, and can afford excellent health care. It is my belief that, hey, you cant pay for a new car, you drive a clunker. No money for fancy clothes and houses, sorry. Basic human needs are a different story though, food and health care are two things nobody in this country should be without. We are spending billions in Iraq, CEO's are making millions at failing companies, but elderly people are worrying how to pay for their medicine.

[fabsroman]

jl,

I am an avid cyclist, and even raced as a junior against some of Lance Armstrong's teammates (e.g., George Hincapie). When Lance got cancer, he wasn't a millionaire. He hadn't even won the Tour de France yet. After he beat cancer, he almost decided to quite cycling. Now, if you know anything about cycling, you would know that his two biggest rivals in the Tour de France, Ivan Basso and Jan Ulrich were both kept out of the Tour last year because of a doping scandal. It turns out that Ulrich had a regimen set out on paper for doping during the Tour that included the use of steroids on certain days and EPO on other days. Oh yeah, the winner of the Tour last year, Floyd Landis, got busted for high levels of testosterone in his blood. He tried to argue that his body naturally created these high levels, and when they tested the testosterone they found it to be synthetic.

Do you really think that Lance won 7 Tours without doping. Do you stop to think that Lance might have gotten testicular cancer and all those other cancers because he was using performance enhancing drugs? Don't steriods increase your chance of getting cancer? Didn't Lyle Alzedo die from brain cancer and admit that he had been taking steroids like crazy while he was playing football for the Oakland Raiders. Do you ever wonder if Lance was "sponsored" behind the scenes by Bristol Myers or another big drug company that he currently does advertising for?

As far as the war in Iraq is concerned, I guess you wouldn't mind terrorist attacks all over the US as long as health care was provided free of charge.

As far as CEO's and their salaries are concerned, I have already covered this in another thread. Suffice it to say that companies are paying millions to CEO's, but they are paying BILLIONS in health care costs. Do you really think that if all CEO's salaries in the US were cut, that we would be able to pay for all health care?

In the end, Americans are very unhealthy and we go to the doctor way too much. We also have the ability to perform very complicated surgeries and procedures which cost a lot. Do you think people in Vietnam get the same level of health care as we do here? The level of health care that you get is directly related to the amount you pay for it. Why should the poor get the best health care available?

If we really want to make sure that everybody is healthy, we might as well go with complete socialism. I mean people will be much healthier if they eat well, are clothed well, and they are housed well. So, lets divide up all the money in the US and see where that gets us.

Last I checked, people did qualify for Medicare when they turned 65. My dad qualifies for it this year and my mom next year. Since my dad retired 3 years ago, they have been paying a good amount for their health insurance even though it is partially subsidized by his previous employer. Now, once they get on Medicare they will be able to stop making that payment.

So, exactly where is there a problem with health care? Oh yeah prescription drugs are the problem. Again, I think a lot of the prescription drug problem could be avoided if people just took care of their health before it became an issue. Kind of like retirement. Read an article that American spending habits did not change between 2005 and 2006. Americans saved a (-1%) of salary in 2006 just as they did in 2005. Also read that 45% of Americans were unable to pay the balance on their credit cards on a monthly basis. Americans live for the short term and don't worry about retirement or their long term health until it is too late.

I have a 35 year old brother that drinks a lot and tells me that retirement is so far away that he isn't really interested in an IRA. My other brother used to smoke a lot. I say used to because he "quit" last week. This is his 4th attempt at quitting so we will see how that goes. On the other hand, my two sisters drink moderately and they are both very active with athletics and they stay in shape.

Why is it that the grasshoppers are always looking to the ants for salvation.

[fabsroman]

As far as health care not being a business, why do you say that?

What if I say that farming shouldn't be a business because it is essential to life. Without food, we will all die.

What if I say home construction should not be a business either because without shelter we will more than likely die or need extreme amounts of health care.

Health care is a business, plain and simple. Why shouldn't doctors get paid. Why shouldn't researchers get paid? If you don't pay these people for what they do, and pay them well, who will want to go into these fields? How would health care turn out then? Would there be any more developments in drugs or new procedures? We need the brightest and most dedicated people in the health care field and we need to pay them well. My brother in-law is about to start medical school. He got a 1500 on his SAT's and he has only gotten A's in school. He actually got accepted to medical school a year early on an accelerated program and he will also be pursuing his masters in chemistry so that he can opt to do research when he gets out. He will probably spend 10 years in higher education institutions. Meanwhile, my brother, an auto body painter, has been making $100,000 a year since he was 19. So far, he has made $1.5 Million. I guess it is only fair for him to make this kind of money to paint cars working 5 days a week from 9 to 5. My other brother makes $130,000 to manage the body shop, but he at least works longer hours. Again, America's priorities are all screwed up, not to mention their view on things.

Don't even get me started about my clients that are driving $50,000+ cars but not contributing to their retirement accounts. Don't get me started about my clients that are making $150,000+ a year buy they are crying to me that they are broke.

[skeet]

Fabs first let me congratulate you on the new young'un. Short nights and long days are here for certain... Now then...

I think the short nights are clouding your judgement a bit. Just a bit though. You are right Americans don't take care of themselves and expect a pill to fix them. Americans are also big TV and radio junkies. They believe the advertisements about all these drugs that the drug companies are pushing. Those ads tell them that a pill will fix them..from ugly toenails to cervical cancer now. Don't get me wrong I think these drugs are necessary in some cases but all this stuff they are pushing? The drug companies have developed some great drugs to help people to live longer...longer..... Not better.. Longer means more medical problems and more money for the drug companies to take care of the other problems that crop up...Keep the profit margins high and get people living longer and the future looks great for drug companies. Oh and then there are the people who have the congenital problems that all people have. I am a diabetic. Do I choose it. No of course not. Luckily I do not have to take insulin and hope I never do but the odds are I will have to. I am trying to watch my diet now and am able to keep the diabetes under control with a bit of medication. When I first contracted it diet was all I needed. It just gets worse...not better. And that is the way of other medical problems. Age makes for more problems and people can live longer because of some of these medications. This is what is called a vicious circle..one breeding on the other..

Another thing..do you think that the medications sold in Canada and Austrailia are made there. I think most are made in the US. The profit margin is SO high that they can afford to sell in places where there are price controls. Not saying that some of the drugs aren't made in other countries..Just that if they are made there and sold here they still have to meet the same conditions. Can't just blame it all on the people but you are right..a lot of the blame can be placed on us.

And I surely do NOT want socialized medicine. Canadians have to wait weeks for some procedures that are done the next day here. An awful lot of Canadians come to the US for their medical conditions. Should we deny them the use of doctors and procedure here in the US just because they find it necessary to come here. This is what the drug companies want to do to the US citizens going to Canada for their meds.


Now I just want to say I'm glad it turned out that young'un was a girl. In about 16 yrs or so You'll understand what I mean when I say that. I know you are both proud of that young'un. Also..grandmothers are crazy. You'll see

[fabsroman]

Thanks Skeet. I have already figured out that grandmothers are crazy because my in-laws have been here since last Tuesday. I am also dreading when this girl turns 16 because not only will she have her learner's permit, but that is also the legal age in Maryland. My dad keeps telling me to wait until she is 13 because then she will be extremely smart and I will be extremely dumb. Personally, I'll take it a day at a time.

As far as the diabetes is concerned, you are playing with what I wrote. I didn't say that all medical conditions are self inflicted. Me, I was born with a heart murmur. I am supposed to go to a cardiologist every two years to get it checked, but I usually go once every 5 years because I am always told I am doing great. Now that I am married and I have a child, that might change. Now, how about diabetics that do not watch their diet. My wife's uncle is a diabetic and he continues to eat foods that are high in sugar. He is extremely over weight and he doesn't take care of himself.

Yep, the problem with us living so long is that the body just cannot take it. That is why 50% of the current population will end up in a nursing home before they pass away. Now, I honestly think there is something wrong with that too. Why is it that the younger generation just cannot take care of the older generation? Why is it that we cannot have home health care instead of a nursing home?

Let's be clear on what I am saying. I have nothing against somebody that does something stupid that affects there health so long as they are not looking to me to pay their bill. If you are born with something or something happens to you that is not your fault, I am all for them receiving health care. Then again, people should also pay for health insurance, even if it is just something that covers catastrophic health issues. For instance, a high deductible health insurance.

We can argue about this all day. Those without health care want the government to provide it, just like those that did not plan well for retirement, just as those that cannot find a job for decades. The government should help the poor get back on their feet, and they should help the poor with health care, but those that aren't poor shouldn't get anything from the government and the poor should only be helped for a certain amount of time.

While riding today, I thought of something else. Maybe it is a good thing to have high Viagra/Cialis sales. That brings in money for the drug companies to do additional research. When I almost wrecked today, I thought of something else. It was a good idea for us not to cancel our dental coverage at $13 every two weeks and go self insured, because knocking my teeth out could be pretty costly. I actually thought about that when I was debating cancelling the coverage.

We can go on and on about health care. Simple fact of the matter is that if you want the best health care, you have to be willing to pay for it. Just like wanting the best house, the best car, the best anything.

[skeet]

It won't be when she is 13..it'll be when she is 11 or so. You'll get dumb as a stick overnight!!

Otherwise you have stepped into an issue I just can't get straight. Why should anyone get any kind of assistance such as welfare if they are able to work. I don't care if they clean the sides of the roads or clean graffitti off of public property. It should be work fare rather than welfare. If they are not able to work..no problems. Another thing. How many of the people on this site have to take drug tests to continue with their work? I did. Why don't we require drug tests for anyone on welfare. If they can't pass it..no money. Why should my tax money go to buy illicit drugs?? and another thing...well you know!!

Now then hopefully when your daughter hits 22 you'll become a genius overnight!

[huntingvet]

Great discussion guys!

I have to say some basic health care should be available to everyone - insured or not. And basically it is. Anything beyond essential health care is extra and should go to those who pay. Anything other than that is socialized medicine.

Someone pointed out that all these "expensive" drugs come from US companies. That actually proves Fabs' point. Where there's money, there's more innovation and advancement. There's a reason why the leading manufacturers aren't in Canada, Mexico, India, China, etc. These other countries do benefit from US consumers but its our medical infrastructure and capitalist economy that drives these advancements for us to enjoy too.

Along the lines of new daughters... my six month old was born on a day very easy to remember. 10/22 ought six (10/22/06 for more normal people). My dad pointed out that both he and I were lucky she was a girl... the expenses in buying a son guns, ammo, and hunting equipment would have put both of us in the poor house real quick... not to say a daughter won't too though!

[fabsroman]

I just had a daughter and I am planning on buying her guns, ammo, and camo. My sisters hunt and shoot, just not as much as me. Heck, my brothers don't hunt and shoot as much as me either.

Congrats on te baby girl Huntingvet!!!!!!!

[Rocky Raab]

Hey Fabs, GramPAs are nuts, too. Let me post the latest gigabyte of pictures of my little bunchkin.

Back to the OP...

I said this before, but I firmly believe that health care is so expensive BECAUSE it's insured too much. If medical insurance were restricted to catastrophic illness/accidents only, we wouldn't see $20 aspirin and $3,000/day hospital rooms.

Every medical procedure and pill today is outrageously expensive because "somebody else is paying for it." Except that the "somebody else" is all of us.

Having the government provide health care would only make things several times worse. You think a $500 toilet seat is expensive for military aircraft, brother, wait until you see what a government-supplied aspirin will cost you

And it WILL cost YOU -- in taxes. In fact, it could very well doom the country to fund health care.