ignorant hunters

[rubicon]

Went to the gas station-convenience store near my house this morning and saw where someone had gutted a deer in the parking lot last night. Gut pile and pool of blood on the ground near the entrance to the store. With all the heat we get as hunters, some people just dont get it, and continue to add fuel to the fire.

[rattus58]

Don't necessarily believe that those were hunters that did that.

Here we had several hundred yards of fence cut into a natural areas reserve... beautifully done, every other section cut so they couldn't just come in and string one area... now they had to remove the old fence and string new fence at $,1000's of dollars and a crew...

Whose the first that they blamed? Hunters of course, for they had fenced out 12,000 acres of prime hunting area... but who really did it...? We have it pegged on environmentalists who wanted to provide another reason to keep hunters out of forests. Also... they are the only ones who would have ever benefitted by that anyway. Hunters aren't that dumb, and the enviro's get paid to put the fence back up anyway.

So don't immediately blame hunters. Yes you may have some so stupid they have the brain cells of a slug... but I'd immediately blame the enviros if I were you and really ham it up as to what lengths they'd go to to embarrass hunters.

Aloha...

[fabsroman]

Don't immediately blame anyone without knowing who actually did it. Don't blame hunters and don't blame environmentalists.

Rattus,

It could have easily been some drunks kids, or somebody that had an issue with the government or the park service.

Rubicon,

The gut pile could have been left by somebody that had an issue with the store owner or one of its employees. Who really knows. All we know is that somebody is an idiot. Sad thing is that we have a lot of idiots out there.

How many people want to drag an ungutted deer through the woods? I know I sure as heck don't want the extra weight.

[rattus58]

I've learned a long time ago fabsroman that you don't blame hunters for anything. It NEVER pays off. You I'm sure haven't been involved in dealing directly with the environmental community and more particularly the radical environmental community.

First off, HUNTERS don't leave gutpiles, don't shoot at road signs, don't drive around town with deer on their hoods, and hunters sure as hell don't bring attention to their activities especially in an unethical manner.

Vandals, felons (shooting roadsigns), and other who inconsiderately tresspass or damage need to be isolated as who they are immeidately and to use the words "hunter" in these cases is damaging to the proper image of hunters and should not be assigned to this kind of behavior.

That being said, if you don't think that a lot of this is being promoted by the animal rights activist, you obviously are still young and can't be blamed for naivety. Greenpeace, as far back as 1999 has been caught on film STAGING these kinds of activities.

No my friend, hunters should immediately come forth and criticize this activity and lay the blame right where it belongs... at the idiot and or the animal rights activist and I'd lump them together in my condemnation.

Aloha...

[fabsroman]

Rattus, you should be an attorney with the swing you are trying to put on this.

Should I assume that it was a Greenpeace or PETA representative that left a gut pile in the farmer's spring house on one of the farm's I hunt on, and that they were also guilty of stealing 5 gallons of wine out of that spring house while they were gutting their deer in it?

Maybe I should blame those same representatives for trapping 12 foxes on that property without the owner's permission, clubbing them over the head, skinning them, and leaving them in a bush for the farm owner to find.

How about the story I read where 100+ dead wild waterfowl were found in a ditch. That was probably one of their representatives too.

I've been around for 36 years, which is long enough to learn that people in general are to blame. There are good and bad people in every line of work and hobby. There are good bike racers that give way when I scream that I am coming up on the inside, and then there are those that slide over to intentionally block me and then complain when I do the same to them. There are attorneys that lie, steal, and cheat, just like there are doctors, contractors, police officers, etc. that do so too.

In the end, I think the number of good people out there far out number the bad ones, hunters included. It is the few bad ones that give a bad name to the entire category.

Now, you can continue to think that this is some great conspiracy theory by Greenpeace or PETA, but I'm sure that if it were they would have had the local news agencies there to put it in the news and reach as many people as possible.

Honestly, you must be pretty naive to think that every hunter out there is a good person, and/or you just haven't met many hunters out in Hawaii, and/or Hawaii just has a lot more nice/honest people than the continental US and you haven't met any bad people yet.

Usually, it all amounts to good and bad. A good attorney will be a good hunter, will be a good friend, etc. On the other hand, a bad person will be a bad attorney, a bad hunter, a bad friend, etc.

[rattus58]

Hi Fabrsoman....

I'm not naive at all. I don't assign the class cut-up to the deans list. I assign the legal ethical and responsible hunter to the class of HUNTER. I don't assign the guy trapping foxes illegally the title of hunter, I assign him the title of trespasser, poacher, vandal whatever, but never hunter.

Vandals leaving a gut pile, are not hunters, not ever in my vernacular. Hooligans, animal rightists, and don't you for a minute be so naive to believe that they aren't masquerading on video to cast a bad light on legal harvesters.... as they did in Nova Scotia, for example.

No I'm sorry, you go right ahead and call these guys hunters, we're not going to. It's time to separate the chaff if you want to keep the positive public opinion we still have (57-43) positive.

Words mean things and we have to illustrate the positive against the negative, and HUNTERS are never negative in our world. It's always them other guys that do the deeds... and they is felons, trespassers, poachers, vandals, hooligans, or even possibly animal rightists trying to make an impression of hunters....

Am I an attorney? No, but I'm fighting to keep hunting for my grandchildren and their kids though... how about you?

Aloha...

[fabsroman]

Believe you me, I'm fighting for the same thing you are. I think I am one step from being the highest NRA member possible, and I write my state representative on a pretty regular basis. It might help that he is an attorney at a firm I know the managing partner at.

My simple point is that somebody can be both a hunter and a criminal. Kind of like an attorney. An attorney can be both an attorney and a criminal. It is just that simple. Again, it comes down to good and bad hunters, and it is the bad ones that give us good guys a bad name.

[rattus58]

Hi Fabrosman... ,

While technically you're right, I would not bless a poacher with the term "bad" hunter... he's a poacher.. or whatever.

Aloha....

[Skinny Shooter]

The public sees anyone out with a gun or "hunting" as a hunter.
Some are legit, some aren't.

The Pa Game Commission started the SPORT program back in the 70's.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/v...a=479&q=152239

Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together

The Game Commission began its Sportsmen Policing Our Ranks Together program in 1976 to remedy hunter misconduct and disrespect and to improve the image of hunters. That year, the agency's field officers handled a record 11,387 prosecutions. The program's need was obvious; hunter misbehavior was a widespread problem. SPORT encouraged hunters to support wildlife conservation law enforcement, report Game Code violators and present a good image while afield. It offered awards to hunters who provided information that led to the prosecution of lawbreakers.

SPORT was expected to minimize conflict between hunters and the general public and to serve as a means to improve and promote hunter ethics. And it did. The very thought that someone might be watching, apparently compelled many hunters to clean up their act. Many hunters also enjoyed participating in the SPORT concept because it reinforced conduct becoming of a sportsman or sportswoman. Young Pennsylvanians quickly became familiar with the program because it was immediately integrated into the Game Commission's Hunter-Trapper Education curriculum, where it has maintained its presence for more than two decades.

If the average Pennsylvania hunter is in his or her 40s, then he or she has known about the SPORT Program for a long time. In fact, it's fair to say more hunters know about the SPORT Program today than ever before. That has been accomplished primarily through Hunter-Trapper Education classroom exposure and ads in the annual Hunting and Trapping Regulations Digest. But if SPORT has a chink in its armor, it's that the program really hasn't reached the general public and hasn't resonated well with older hunters. Moreover, there's little inspiration to participate in SPORT after you're introduced to the concept.

The SPORT Program celebrated its 25th anniversary in November 2001. Hundreds of individuals have received SPORT Awards over this period for their involvement in the apprehension of individuals who broke wildlife and game laws. It's fair to say SPORT has helped to make a difference. But its impact on those who break the law could be greater. There are a variety of reasons why this isn't happening. But the most conspicuous is SPORT's relative obscurity with the public and limited appeal to hunters. It's not that people are opposed to having a SPORT Program, or to seeing Game and Wildlife Code violators get arrested. A 1996 study documented that 87 percent of Pennsylvanians thought it was a very important Game Commission activity to enforce wildlife laws. Pennsylvania hunters generally seem to support the SPORT program. They just aren't actively participating in it.

SPORT has a presence in Pennsylvania, make no mistake about it. But we need to make it stronger, a force that actively intimidates those who would break the law. Think about it. What if more hunters started to use their cell phones to relay information about illegal activities to the Game Commission. Or if they started to send emails - maybe even digital photographs of illegal bait piles, tree-stands or other evidence of violations - to a specialized account that is monitored by agency personnel. The pressure on those breaking the Game and Wildlife Code would increase tremendously.

Hunters can improve the atmosphere in Penn's Woods by participating in the SPORT Program. And there's no better time to get involved with this effort than now. Now, more than ever, hunters have virtually unlimited opportunities afield. Game populations are phenomenal. Technology has made hunting easier than ever. There simply is no justifiable reason to hunt illegally. Not that there ever was. Individuals who hunt illegally are cheating the overwhelming, law-abiding majority. It's time to make things tougher for the scofflaws who think they're better than the rest of us. It's time for all of us to work together to refine hunting's image. The ability to manage wildlife and the continuation of our hunting tradition hinge on our very actions.

Right now, hunting's future is in our hands. That may sound like a bold statement but it's defendable. A recent survey by Responsive Management, a Harrisonburg, Virginia, polling firm, showed that 80 percent of Pennsylvanians believe providing hunting opportunities is an important function of the Game Commission. Even more telling was that 83 of Pennsylvanians approved of lawful hunting. Yes, we currently do control our destiny as hunters. And the SPORT Program is a vehicle that can help us ensure that hunting maintains its rich tradition in Pennsylvania.

Ethics define who we are as sportswomen and sportsmen. They separate the best from the rest. A majority of Pennsylvania's hunters are not ethically-challenged, and it always seems to have been that way. These hunters believe in following the laws, they respect fellow hunters and the property of others, and they believe its important to preserve our hunting heritage. They are the reason why more than 80 percent of Pennsylvanians support lawful hunting. They are also the reason why wildlife management is so successful in Pennsylvania. Our hunters care; they always have.

SPORT is important. It deserves you support and helps solidify hunting's future. Do what you can to support it. Walk the walk of an ethical hunter. Report violations of the Game and Wildlife Code that you uncover. Teach young hunters the difference between right and wrong. Support wildlife conservation. Rest assured, your influence will be greatly appreciated by other hunters who care and generations of hunters yet to come. Thanks in advance for getting involved!

[rattus58]

Hey Skinny... great post and article. I agree. Currently I am the president of Hawaii Hunting Association. We're hoping to get re-involved in 2008 with the many clubs here in Hawaii that have no voice.

This idea of hunter behavior is an important one. You cite 83 % of the public support hunting. That is not the statistic we've gotten from the NSSF, IHEA, or USFWS surveys. The statistics we have show a 57/43 up or down, depending how you phrase the question.

IHEA suggests that roughly 12% of the population support Hunting, 17% oppose Hunting, and 70% have no opinion. If we are to say that the no opinion and the support hunting together is the 82 or 83%, that's fine, but that is a very fragile 83% when you are relying on undecideds, a bad visual could change them immediately to anti.

That someone is out hunting, whether good or bad, is true. But you are exactly right, get the public involved. The good are the hunters, the bad are the maggots...

Aloha...

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Just last week in the news a lady had her dog shot by a hunter. Shot by a hunter why? Because it was still hunting season. They later found out her neighbor was tired of it pooping in his yard so he shot it. Just happened it was hunting season somewhere. oh, a gun and an animal. Must of been a hunter. Like the punk in the mall that Hunted down people in the mall and shot them with his ak-47 HUNTING rifle. It is all a slam on us hunters by those that don't like hunting. So want to do something in return? I have been pushing an issue local here with those that sit on a hill in the local parks and slam bucket after bucket of golf balls into the woods..my woods...and never pick them up. Littering is what I am trying to get them cited for. No different than my leaving plastic water bottles laying around. The balls are nibbled on by critters and it looks like it snowed in there. But I guess as long as they aren't hunting it is ok to mess up....I ran into a man that was upset because his farmer neighbor opened his land to extended deer to help crop damage. I mean I ran into this man in the wood and he was a violent person. Next day the farmer had his windows shot out of his pickup truck. ..he closed his land..and yes I turned this neighbor into the police and game commission for investigation...but still the land is now off limits to hunters....people do go to extremes to get their point across

[skeeter@ccia.com]

one man that had his land posted in pa also was upset because another neighbor would let people hunt his land. The guy pumped oil wells so the man next door would take a poop in the doorway of his sheds and leave an empty shotgun shell there too. I worked with this guy and this is the story he told me. He didn't know at that time I was one of those that hunted this land and I reported the activity to the owner so he had an idea of who was doing this...... Land has since been sold and posted...'mine, keep out'. but remained open to hunting for years..oh and the neighbor was a hunter himself.

[rubicon]

Talked to the convenience store clerk: guys caught- station had security cameras- and it was a couple of guys who had been hunting and stopped at the store on their way home and gutted the deer. supposedly said they gutted in the grass beside the store and not on the parking lot but???????. As for me posting ignorant hunters, I offer my apology- they were probably not ignorant, just not thinking but thats what gives sportsmen a bad name and gives radicals extra ammo. Here on the shore it is not uncommon to find landowners who will not allow a gutpile to remain on their property after field dressing. I got a phone call from a land owner last year after I gutted a deer on the edge of a hedgerow and bean field and was told if I left "animal parts" on the property I could no longer hunt it. Next morning when I went to bag and remove the pile all that was left was a few pieces of corn and a beautiful red fox which I just got back from the taxidermist. Problem here is as farms are being sold new owners seem to be big money, big city guys who care lease the fields to real farmers and consider wildlife a resource to help make mortgage payments via huntclubs.

[Valigator]

Rubicon, you fine, wonderful, sweet speciman of a man...I can top that one, 4 am in Moorehaven in front of a Subway sandwich shop, with hugh tree, hanging and taking pictures of a 12'6"...I love this guy, he's a hoot.....


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL11/...2/35184762.jpg

[Valigator]

Skeeter sometimes you just have to stand up and say No...I wish you all the luck, peace of mind and success that comes with that fight!!!!!!!!!!!