1911 accuracy

[270man]

What accuracy can one expect from a "run-of-the-mill" 1911 45ACP. I have an article by Jeff Cooper that says the ordinary 45ACP should shoot into 6" at 50-yards. Over the years I've been able to test around five of these autos, including two Colt Gold Cups. None of them would group into 6" at 25-yards! Admittedly, I didn't thoroughly wring these out with large samples of different types of loads. Most of the jacketed bullets used were Remington bulk bullets from 185gr to 230gr. Mostly, I loaded cast SWC bullets from various suppliers -- the favorite being a 200gr hard cast SWC. Powders used were predominantly Bullseye and W231, with lesser numbers of loads using Unique.

Were the 1911 autos of Cooper's day more accurate, was he just a better shot, did he experiment until he got the right combination of components for his loads or ??

BTW -- It is always best to first suspect one's shooting ability. I am a pretty decent shot with the handgun and all test were done from the bench (not with mechanical rest, however). A friend who is a much better shot than I confirmed my results.

Anybody out there concur with my results or do you get the same accuracy as Jeff Cooper?

270man

[Dan Morris]

Most folks do not shoot a 45 enough to become proficient with one. Back in my comp shooting days, any one that shot in the 2600 club was highly capable of this accuracy. Matches were won by X Rings! I can't do it today but can still max a combat target!
It requires tons of practice to achieve this!
Dan

[Adam Helmer]

270Man,

The .45ACP is capable of fine accuracy with a good barrel, a good load, a good bushing and a shooter with very good techniques. I confirmed my handloads with a Ranson Rest and got 2" or less at 25 yards with the Lyman #452460 200 grain SWC cast bullet and 5.0 grains of 700X or 5.0 grains of Red Dot. Any of my .45 autos will do 2 inches at 25 yards from the bench with these loads.

Like Dan said, shoot lots and then shoot the .45 some more.

Adam

[skeet]

I have a few 45's..just bought another too. Hopefully it will shoot as well as my others. Every one I have will shoot into 6" at 50 yds from a rest...with fair to middlin ammo. Most of 'em are pretty much factory guns too. One of the most accurate is an Auto Ordnance gun that is pretty much mil spec.. The Wilson Combat and the National match guns are both better shooters than I am..by far. I had a WWII gun that was pretty bad for accuracy but it was still minute of bad guy at 25 ft. Most of the coyotes I have shot right here on the ranch have been with my Wilson...and a few with the Bushmaster Varminter I have. It is a really fun gun to shoot too. If ya don't have that long gun with ya the yotes just trot right on by..at 25-50 yds...so plug 'em with the 45. I actually shot one a few days ago with one of the 45Single Action Colt copies I have.. Surprised the heck outta me. Yote too , I'll bet

[PJgunner]

I'm curious as to what you mean by "run of the mill" .45's? If you talking milsurp guns with those tiny sights, that's one thing.
Year ago, far more than I care to count, my first .45 auto was a milsurp made by Ithaca. I kind of wish i still had it, but it's way long gone. I shot it quite a bit and considered myself lucky if half the shots in the magazine stayed on the paper at 25 yards. Part of the problem was the gun was loose it rattled when you shook it, two it had those teeny tiny sights and third, I wasn't all that good a shot back then.
oday, all but one of my 1911 .45 ACP's have had custom work done. Work was done by the late F. Bob Chow of San Francisco BTW. Back in the 1950s, Bob was serious competition to Pachmeyr when it came to accurizing the 1911. I'm proud to say he was a personal friend to me when I was a young man. Actually, two of my .45's are strictly stock. One is a Colt Gold Cup Combat Commander that was part of a limited run of I think 500 in blue finish and 500 in stainless steel. Mine is blue. I fell into that one. Don't know the value of that gun, but I saw one in stainless at a gun show and the price was two grand FIRM! would have been nice to have the pair as a set.
The other is a Colt Combat Commander made in the 1970's. it's strictly stock for all practical purposes except I've polished the throat and ramp and replaced that man eating grip safety with a wider beavertail type. Actually, the original short tang of the grip safety is the part that did the biting. It has the teeny tiny sights of the original 1911's. taking my time, I can usually get decent groups with it at 25 yards. I figure it wasn't meant to be used that far out, but yes, I could hit a man at 50 yards should I have the need. Personally, I hope I never have to have the need.
Paul B.

[Adam Helmer]

PJgunner,

At my gun club they have a steel Pig at 100 yards sitting on the rails. I routinely knock it over offhand with my 200 grain cast .45 SWC load from my M1911 and then have to walk out 100 yards to set it up, again.

Adam

[Dan Morris]

In the days of yore, I've had Gold Cups/ Clark's/ Chows and issue NM pistols.
I guess .... IMO...Clark did the best work. Ones I have in 45 now are a couple of Auto Ordinance that I fitted slides to frames, polished guts and fitted match barrels/bushings and triggers to. (Skeet, the early ones were machined and can be bought cheap!!!)They shoot a LOT better than the ole goat is capable of!LOL
Dang, it's amazing how much less ya shoot when uncle is not feeding them!
Dan

[skeet]

You is certainly right about how much we shoot. When Unk was payin..I shot off full mags and never stopped to think of the cost..And if I needed another gun..well shoot...They had a plenty of 'em. They kept patching the other stuff though

[PJgunner]

Originally Posted by Adam Helmer

PJgunner,

At my gun club they have a steel Pig at 100 yards sitting on the rails. I routinely knock it over offhand with my 200 grain cast .45 SWC load from my M1911 and then have to walk out 100 yards to set it up, again.

Adam

There's a simple solution to that problem. Quit knocking that pig over.
Oh well, we all need the exercise.
Paul B.

[PJgunner]

Dan M. I never could afford Clark's work. When I was a kid, I used to hang out in Chow's shop and he was awfully patient with what could be called a pestiferous kid. We became friends as I grew older and he put together a few guns for me and what were more than reasonable prices. I'd find the .4 and he'd fix it up right.
I hadn't been back to the San Francisco bay Area since my father passed away so lost contact with Mr. Chow. It was a sad day when his passing was noted in the American Rifleman Magazine. He was a pretty cool guy.
Paul B.

[Dan Morris]

LOL, PJ, I could not afford Clark's.......I met him when I was stationed in Louisiana......he wanted his name mentioned at matches. Like you and Chow, guess he liked the kid....he did several for me at a very good price! I was happy to show his products! AMU stuff was not bad, he could just turn out
better stuff....dang, how time does fly!
Dan


Back to your original question....I was issued some total junk to carry.....loose/worn...etc. I never had any problems firing expert with them...even in Hardball matches...(using issued ammo and your service issue)...granted, I shot extensively...Army used the 45 for both Center fire and Service class.........AF recognized the 38 for CF....

I still get some side looks when I shoot a old Remington 1911A1 along side some of the LEO kids I shoot with at
my range. I've got a 25yd silhouette target taped to a fridge in the garage with 10 rds in a 3" center of BG...
I call it burglar alarm!..LOL

[270man]

Guess I should have been a little more specific with my question. There were lots of replies about accuracy with Gold Cups, Wilson specials, etc. Cooper's article specifically mentioned factory out-of-the-box Colt 1911s.

Another departure from the original question were some comments about pratice and shooting ability. This should be removed from the equation since we are only talking about 1911 accuracy. Probably the best way to measure would be to use a Ransom Rest or something equivalent.

270man

[skeet]

You is certainly right about how much we shoot. When Unk was payin..I shot off full mags and never stopped to think of the cost..And if I needed another gun..well shoot...They had a plenty of 'em. They kept patching the other stuff though