An OLD Ammo question..

[skeet]

Maybe someone can identify the "cartridge" pictured. Some info on it. The bullet measures approx .569-570... the rolled paper "case" measures approx .620.. Length is approx 2 inches weight is approx 520 grains total. There is a thin cup in the rear of the "case" holding the powder in. Have a couple of these and trying to figure out what they are. Any help would be appreciated. Burnside cartridge..Old Spencer pre brass case??

[PJgunner]

Best I can do is a very wild assed guess (WAG). I couldn't find anything in my reference books so here goes. I think it might be a cartridge for some kind of muzzle loader. Probably removed the bullet and poured the powder down the barrel, then rammed the bullet home. It would be interesting to see what the base of the bullet looked like but that would most likely mean the desruction of the cartridge. If the bullet had a hollow base like Minie Ball, that would tend to confirm my thoughts. You did not mention a primer and there is no rim to contain the round against a firing pin blow which also tends to make me think it's a cartridge for a muzzle loader.
Anyway, that's my best WAG.
Paul B.

[skeet]

I have seen a bunch of pre loaded ammo for muzzleloaders. They usually have paper type holder that is broken off and powder dumped down the bbl with the paper and all stuffed down the bore(nitrated?). This is definitely not like that at all. The cardboard tube is a rolled type like a shotshell. And about that thick. The bullet seems to be glued in place. I had a few of thee and took one apart years ago. Cant remember the particulars but it was a hollow based bullet and the cardboard case must have been nitrated because it burned in a hurry. nothing left but fine ash. Think the little paper type plug in the rear is nitrated too.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Could it be ammo for an early breech loader, such as an 1863 Sharps (or similar rifle)? The 1863 used a nitrated paper cartridge. The lever was dropped to expose the breech; the cartridge was inserted and when the breech closed, it 'sheared' off the back of the cartridge, exposing the powder. A percussion cap was then placed on the nipple, similar to a regular percussion muzzleloader, and the the gun was cocked and fired. The nitrated paper burned quickly, and then the process was repeated.

Just a guess....here is more on the sharps.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/

[skeet]

That was my first guess too. But I am certain this din't shear off.. Too heavy for that. and if I remember right they were somewhat tapered.. I have seen a picture of somethig like this but don't remember where. Probably an old American Rifleman mag or whatever.

[Rapier]

Skeet,
The only gun that I could think of, as a class, that would use a cartridge like that would be a pin or needle fire rifle. The primer is inside the cartridge and struck by a "needle" firing pin going into the paper cartridge. Actually the primer is at the rear of the bullet.

I do believe that is what you have.

The Belgians had a bolt action rifle that shot a paper cartridge that is very similar in appearance.
Best,
Ed

[Jack]

The needle gun (Dreyse needle gun) cartridge makes sense. A quick check of Wikipedia shows a cartridge diagram that doesn't quite match up to what you have, Skeet. They say the Dreyse used a .61 caliber bullet, and a paper cartridge that was rolled and tied at the 'upper' end (their words). I'm guessing the 'upper end' was the bullet end.
They also describe the bullet as being acorn shaped, rounded at both ends- not a concave base.
Still, that paper tube looks too thick for a Sharps to shear off, as the non cartridge Sharps rifles did. The cartridge doesn't look like a Maynard, Burnside or Spencer cartridge, either. BTW, the Spencer was designed around a rimfire case from the start- the Spencer never used a paper cartridge.
A needle gun cartridge seems the best guess, but I'm still scratching my head. . .

[GoodOlBoy]

if it wasn't for the fact this is an actual cartridge I would guess it was a paper patched bullet.

Found this, but doesn't look right.

http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/papermake.htm

GoodOlBoy