california ammo law

[DON WALKUP]

SB962 was approved by the assembly and now sits on the govs desk.

if he signs it into law, we here in california will be able to purchase only 50 rounds of handgun ammo per month.

many of us have lever action and carbines in handgun calibers; i have a 357/38 lever and a 9mm ruger semi-auto carbine.

EVERYONE out there needs to write, call, fax or email gov schwarzenegger and urge him to veto ab962.

if passed into law, this WILL have a profound affect on the nation and especially gun owners...i believe it will spark a new wave of anti-gun legislation by way of attacking ammo and it's use, ability to purchase, store and possess.

where the heller decision was a great victory for the ownership of firearms, the constitution DOES NOT protect ammo.

its very simple: state legislatures are starting to say "you may own a firearm, but you may NOT have, purchase or manufacture the ammo to shoot from it."

as a caveat: i wrote every member on the california state legislature safety committee in regards to this issue. i got back three emails marked "deleted without being opened". many of california's legislators are very openly contemptious when it comes to gun legislation they are trying to get passed, if you oppose them; kevin de leon, the author of AB962, is one of them.

we are reaching "critical mass" friends...better act while we still can.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Don, your reps are suppose to keep tabs on any contact made with those in their district..so I am told anyhow..I also think maybe someone at the desk that works for these people are doing the 'send back' and your rep don't even know you contact him/her...ah..maybe you should talk to them in person and ask if returning contact from you without even opening is his policy????...bet someone would get an butt whoopin...from what I remember, we had our IBC computers turned off at important times..'gun shows'..and lots of noise from lots of us found that in the office of Pa state police was an anti-gun/hunter..and used this job for their own interests...they no longer work there...interesting to know the answer to this on your end..

[8X56MS]

I understand Arnold signed the bill today.

It will go to court, and get tossed out. Frankly Don, its time for folks in California to just move.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Since ammo is an important part of a gun and a gun is not complete without it, I can't see how they can let you have only 'part' of your gun....guess be same as saying turn in the fire pin but you can keep the rest?????? Somehow we need to link the 2 as one unit...what scares me too is for some reason, Calif..sets the future for the rest of the nation...why is that? Pa will sure follow with the gov we have now......

[Dan Morris]

Ammo control is a subject that many of us have been called paranoid over. This kinda blows the delusion!!!
Dan

[gd357]

It's really unbelievable to see the kind of BS that goes on today. Got to wonder how much more of this crap will fly before the whole pot boils over. The Founding Fathers fought a revolution for less than this.

[Larryjk]

Don Walkup, The right to keeep and bear arms "shall not be infringed". I'd say not letting you have any ammo is infringing on that right. However, they are just saying you may not have very much ammo. You should be sure to buy at least 50 rounds each month, whether you need them or not. Time to be a faithful reloader.

[fabsroman]

FYI - the final bill did not contain the 50 round limit. What this bill did was require the retailers to take down the ID information of people buying handgun ammo. At the end of the day, it isn't that big of a deal to me. Here in Maryland I already have to provide ID to retailers when I buy powder for reloading. How hard will it be for retailers to take out a book, write down the ID number, name, address, etc. in it and what ammo the person bought. Ultimately, I guess it depends on how onerous the record keeping really is. If it requires the retailer to track lots, etc., then that could become a PITA.

At the end of the day, I have no idea how they think this law is going to deter crime. Like criminals cannot take a drive out of state, buy all the handgun ammo they want, and then come back into the state. Sheer stupidity and a waste of the legislature's and retailer's time if you ask me, but it doesn't spell doomsday for the handgun shooters in California.

Also, California does not set the precedent in laws for the nation. In fact, California is viewed as being out there when it comes to passing laws. California has had a pretty strict emission law in effect for quite some time and I don't see many, if any, states following its lead. California banned the Barrett .50 BMG and I don't see many states doing that either. California is definitely off the reservation.

[skeet]

Fabs I can't believe how far you will go. I don't think there is a law in Md requiring retailers to take your ID info to buy powder. The store may do it. If they did I would buy elsewhere. The police have been trying to make retailers take ID on ammo(in Md) but there is no law requiring it. The Federal law requiring handgun ammo record keeping was done away with many years ago. It was just too much paperwork. It was even in effect on 22 ammo. Now as to the state requiring an ID for ammo. You stated correctly that it is ridiculous and it is..absolutely. Nope it doesn't spell doomsday but it is surely heading there. Some day hopefully you will realize that you HAVE to draw a line in the sand and say NO MORE. We fought the strongest country in the world for our independance from such stupidity and over regulation in the late 1700's. Sorry to say it but it is surely coming to the same point in this country. We have hate crimes legislation and government run health care legislation in Congress. More control!! Our President clearly does not even like our country or it's former policies..or it's people for that matter. So he changes it with the use of things like the Czars..Which aren't even approved by law. More control!! Fabs..answer this..when IS enough..more than enough? What is to stop some government flunky from following up on an ammo sale and accusing someone, just on the basis of possession...of a certain crime. Trust the government. But I can't trust the government we have in place now. They are marxists..not socialists. Control is their mantra.. and every little law such as this one you were discussing...even though stupid and ridiculous gives those same governmental idiots just a little MORE control over Yours and my life. Just what we need. Remember that a government powerful enough to give you everything you want...is powerful enough to take everything you have!! Regulation is the death knell of freedom. Believe it. Even the little regulations that won't really bother you ...too much!

[dovehunter]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

...What this bill did was require the retailers to take down the ID information of people buying handgun ammo. At the end of the day, it isn't that big of a deal to me...

Ordinarily I'd agree with you. However of late, where gun and/or ammo control is concerned, I am beginning to think more and more about the wisdom behind the old saying "for want of a (horseshoe) nail the battle was lost". The liberals, gun-haters, and too-much-free-timers of this country have now gotten smart enough to know that they can only effectively chip away at our rights with little slivers instead of big chunks. After all the little slivers are put together at the end of the day, we find we have been screwed and didn't know it! I can see now why the NRA takes such a hard line and opposes any "anti" legislation of any kind. They too are well aware of the nail and battle axiom.

[fabsroman]

I'll reply to both you and Skeet in this one reply. Simply put, things aren't quite as simple as they were 100 years ago and they definitely aren't as simple as they were 233 years ago when this country was founded. There needs to be regulation and there needs to be more of it compared to what was in place in 1776. Back then, there weren't e-mail scams from Nigeria trying to scam Americans out of their life savings. Back then, there wasn't something called the atomic bomb. Back then, people didn't fly airplanes into skyscrapers and kill 4,000+ people. Back then, there weren't interestates. Simply, put, the government is controlling our lives every single day. The speed limit that is enforced against us when we drive is control, and so is that red light that you stop at. Laws against murder, rape, and other crimes are controlling us from our own free will. However, what we need is sensible legislation and not trash. What we are getting is trash. Sensible legislation would have prevented this huge economic downturn. Sensible legislation would possibly fix the health care issues we have right now. I just went through the birth of a child and what I think is Lyme disease, and between what we paid in health insurance premiums for my wife's employee share of her coverage and what we paid in co-pays and our deductible, we have spent $8,000 on health care. That hurts, but we make a good amount of money so it doesn't hurt as bad compared to a family of 4 with household income of $50,000, or even $80,000. Plain and simple, something needs to be done about health insurance. I met with a client on Tuesday that needs to become a partner of his wife's business because not a single insurance company will insure him if he starts his own business because of a pre-existing condition that he was born with. He is 45 years old and cannot get health insurance on his own. He has to be in a group plan where there are at least 2 or more people in the plan and then the insurer will not look at pre-existing conditions. Now, how stupid is that?

Onto guns. Yes, I do think we need to fight for ALMOST every little thing, but there definitely is some BS out there. Why is it that when people buy guns brand new from a dealer they have to go through a NICS check, but when it is an independent sale from person to person a NICS check is not required. How in the world is an independent person going to know if he/she is selling a gun to a felon. Are we as gun owners saying "Hey, felons cannot own new guns, but we don't really care if they buy them used". Is that our stance? Maryland at least requires sales of assault weapons and handguns between private individuals to be done through an FFL. Personally, I see no reason why ALL gun sales should not go through an FFL and ALL potential gun owners should go through a NICS check. Yeah, you guys are going to complain about the additional cost, which I think was $20 when I did it in April, but as far as I am concerned, the additional cost is worth the benefit to society. Kind of like the additional cost of having seat belts and airbags in vehicles. Do you guys have any idea how much that adds to the cost of those cars? Air bags can be quite expensive.

How far will I go? I'll go to the land of reason. The entire reason this country is in the crapper is because we have both political sides being hard heads about everything. Republicans want to deport every illegal alien, Democrats want to give every illegal alien the whole country. Me, I want to allow the good ones to stay and I want to deport the illegals. Maybe if we let the good ones stay, have them pay something in back taxes, and get them working on the books, then we might just make some additional tax revenue to help with this insane deficit that I, my kids, and my grandkids will be facing.

Me, I'm going to the party of common sense. I will not scream about "death panels" when a bill has end of life planning in it that is supposed to advise people about wills, advanced health care directives, and powers of attorney. I read that portion of the bill that Republicans were up in arms about saying that it was the equivalent of death panels, and that was complete BS. I'm completely in favor of end of life planning because way too many people do not do it and leave a mess behind in their passing or their incompetence (i.e., no longer able to make financial and health care decisions for themselves).

So, regarding this entire issue with the ammo in California, I will not be up in arms about it. Hopefully, they will figure out it is a waste of time and they will do away with it. I also will not oppose common sense legislation regarding guns.

Now Skeet, here is the law on the sale of explosives in Maryland:

Maryland Code Public Safety Section 11-112:

(a)(1) Each manufacturer and each dealer shall keep, for all explosives shipped, purchased, or sold, a record that includes:

(i) the name and address of each consignee, buyer, or seller of the explosives;

(ii) the date of each shipment, purchase, or sale; and

(iii) the amount and description of the explosives.

(2) Each record kept under this subsection shall at all times be open for inspection by agents of the licensing authority and by federal, State, and local law enforcement officers.

(3)(i) Subject to subparagraph (ii) of this paragraph, each manufacturer and each dealer shall provide a copy of each record kept under this subsection to the State Fire Marshal in the form that the State Fire Marshal requires.

(ii) A record kept under this subsection shall be provided on request, but need not be filed more than once in each calendar month.

So, if you have not been giving your ID to the people you buy powder from in Maryland, whoever is selling it to you must not meet the definition of a dealer or the person selling it to you is violating the law. Every time I have bought powder from PG Trap & Skeet, they take my driver's license and write down stuff in a book that they keep.

Did you also know that it is illegal in Maryland to have more than 5 pounds of powder in your possession without applying for a license from the State Fire Marshall. As part of that application, you have to include a set of fingerprints. Kind of makes it hard to reload unless you have that license or use up all the powder as soon as you get it.

By the way, I think that 5 pound limit is retarded. Sad thing is that I have read a case that involved it.

Did you also know that it is illegal to possess any powder in a multifamily dwelling like a townhouse or a condo. No reloading allowed in those dwellings. I can kind of understand that law since you never know if the idiot next to you is going to set the place on fire.

[skeet]

That is the explosives law in Md..better go check it out though. Add yes 5 lbs of smokeless powder and 5 lbs of black powder. Yep it certainly is retarded. I also know a fellow in Cambridge who was cited by the State fire marshals office for having more than 5 lbs of powder. Never got past the supervisor of the assistant fire marshal. He actually called the guy and apologized for his employee. The license has been in effect for more than 30 yrs. Do you have a license?? Being an officer of the court I assume you do. Did you have powder when you lived in the town home or wherever you lived. Can't remember whether you lived in one or not. I actually know at least 200 people who reload(in Md) and do NOT have that stupid license. Some actually happen to be police officers too.

Now as to the medical ins stuff and control. Do you think that having medical insurance is a right? Do you think you should pay for everyone else's insurance..even though they do not work. I know we as TAX PAYERS pay for the indigent and others..IS that right also? When does enough become too much?? Let's turn this around here.. If the people who choose not to work are able to vote and make us pay for them and their families..where will it stop? At some point we just have to stand back and say NO MORE...or you and the future taxpayers of this country will pay more and more of YOUR earnings to support those that refuse to be responsible for themselves. Probably at some point 100% of your income. It surely IS possible. Heck anyone would almost be a fool to continue to work.. So there will be less and less who choose not to work..meaning more taxes for you. We have to stop this somewhere. Now is the time. Illegals are just that..Why do we have to support them also. to the tune of more than 12 Million people. If they are here legally then they should be either paying for their insurance or Paying for their hospital bills. If they aren't..then refuse service...Oh No..someone may suffer..Medical treatment STILL isn't a right!! Neither political party out there are our friends. Especially the dem..er marxists.. Heck the Republicans are now socialists. Time for term limits..

As for the felons buying guns from individuals..Fabs..they are felons.. Why are they not in jail? Why are they NOT locked up when found in possession of a firearm.. And if you say well maybe they don't belong in jail..well they KNOW it is illegal for them to have a firearm in their possession much less buy one. You are willing and able to pay for your pleasures..like firearm ownership..many others aren't.. Sorry but it seems as though people in your position are ready and able to sell out the constitution to the ideals of regulation. Maybe we should have a fee to use the right of free speech also. We can surely show reasonable cause for that too.

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

I still live in a townhouse and I do not have any powder here. I don't do any reloading here. I do it all at my parents' place and if I buy 5 pounds of powder I try to run through it all in one sitting. Yes, I guess I am in violation of the law briefly because I would have 5 pounds of smokeless and some of the pyrodex pellets laying around, but it wouldn't be for very long. Being an officer of the Court doesn't mean that I get hanged for violating a law, it just means I need to try and observe them as well as possible. Everybody makes mistakes once in a while.

Regarding the guns and felons. I am not saying that there should be any restriction on somebody's right to own a gun, except for felons. Requiring that ALL firearms sales, even private individual to private individual, goes through a FFL and the buyer goes through a NICS check is not really infringing on somebody's right to own a gun. Yeah, it costs $20 for the NICS check, which I really do not think is unreasonable. Look, it is costing us money right now to exercise our right to free speech over the internet via our service provider fee.

The big difference between a NICS check and related fee upon purchase and the annual registration fee is the purpose behind the laws. The first is to prevent felons from getting guns, the second is to make it harder and costlier to own guns. Yes, there is a fee related to a NICS check, but such is life. We could make the NICS check fee free, but you know somebody has to pay for it. So, either the gun purchaser pays for it or society (i.e., all taxpayers) pay for it.

Regarding health care, something needs to be done about it period. Wait until Medicare needs to be canceled or the age extended because the country cannot afford it. Same thing will happen with social security. Funny thing is that here is the opposite argument Skeet. You throw it in my face that I can afford the extra cost for the NICS checks for gun purchases, Well, guess what, I can probably afford the extra cost for health care for quite some time, but at the rate we are going, I might not be able to afford it forever. The way insurance works is to spread the risk across a broad population. The problem with health insurance is that the companies try to eliminate individual high risk people with a pre-existing condition. However, if is is a group policy of 2 or more people, they don't really care about pre-existing conditions. Now, why can't the insurance company spread the risk of a pre-existing condition across ALL of their insureds, instead of just across the people on that specific plan. They do it with group plans, otherwise a 2 person or 3 person group plan with a single person with a pre-existing condition would still be ridiculously expensive. So, why not pass a law making it illegal for insurance companies to charge individual rates that take into account the specific person's pre-existing condition instead of figuring the likelihood of applicants with pre-existing conditions and spreading that risk amongst their entire pool of insureds. Of course, the individual still needs to pay the premium himself/herself. Now, there could be exceptions for self-inflicted conditions like obesity, alcoholism, smoking, etc. However, why should somebody be told that they cannot get health insurance for their 4 month old baby because the baby is in the 99th percentile for weight and is considered to be obese? That is utterly nuts.

My take on people not working is that they should receive government provided health care as long as they qualify for unemployment insurance benefits. If they do not qualify for unemployment benefits they are SOL.

The big issue with health care costs is just that, health care costs are increasing faster than inflation. So, either we need people to die sooner, or health care will eventually be way too expensive and so will health insurance. There has to be a way to control it.

Did I give my example of my wife's OBGYN charging $4,800 for our son's delivery in May when the OBGYN was late to the delivery and the house OBGYN did the delivery and was in the room for all of 10 minutes. Granted, my wife's OBGYN did check up on her a couple of times while she was in the hospital. I would say they spent 2 hours tops with my wife, including the time the house OBGYN spent delivering the baby, and they charged $4,800. That is utterly nuts.

How about the fact that doctors charge insane rates because they know that insurance companies are going to discount them? What happens to the poor guy that needs medical service but doesn't have insurance. Do the doctors reduce the charge in that case. Nope. Next thing you know the poor guy is coming to me because he is getting sued and I am trying to work out some type of agreement with the providers to accept a reduced amount. He is paying me $135 an hour for something that the providers would have willingly reduced for the insurance companies.

Simply put, free markets will not work in today's society. Today's society is way too complicated. Look at the derivative trading that was a part of this entire recession. Hardly anybody understood any of that.

By the way, just in case you didn't notice, you were wrong about there being no law in Maryland that requires retailers of gun powder to obtain the ID of the person buying the gunpowder. FYI - this requirement applies to ALL gunpowder, not just 5 pound kegs. Also, if you knew about the 5 pound limit so long ago and know so many people, LEO's and Fire Marshalls included, that are against it, why not try to get it repealed? I thought about writing my state representative about it, but my state representative is in Montgomery County and as liberal as can be. Planning on moving to Howard County soon, so maybe I'll take up the issue at that time.

At the end of the day, I hope the California law gets repealed at some point, I hope something happens to stem the soaring costs of health care, and I hope something happens to help reduce the national debt. In the meantime, I'll make sure I have plenty of ammo handy.

By the way, the issue with health care costs is that as they increase, less and less people will be able to afford them. So, the risk/cost will not be able to be spread amongst a large pool. The people that will most likely go without insurance are the young/healthy. Guess what, they wouldn't cost the pool very much and most of their premiums would be used to pay for the elderly/sickly. As more and more health people withdraw from the pool because they cannot afford to pay the premium, that means the elderly/sickly will have to pay more or they will also have to drop out. Guess what happens to them then. This is something that HMO's experienced initially. At first, they were making money hand over fist because the people signing up for them were the healthy people that only worried about what the premium cost was because they never had to go to the doctor. I was one of those people at age 21. I went with Kaiser. Well, as those people got older and stuck with the HMO, guess what the HMO's figured out, they were no longer making as much profit, if any, because their treatment costs went up. Then, the premium went up.

If 50% of Americans cannot afford health insurance/health care and the national debt is going to be $20 trillion in 10 years and arguably $50 trillion in 10 years, you have to admit that these are problems that need to be addressed. Of course, we can all take head in the sand approach and just keep stocking up on ammo. Guess where this nation will be after that? We need compromise in a lot of areas.

[skeet]

[QUOTE=fabsroman;332651]Skeet,



Well lets go back a bit..the legislators are tryiung to pass a law to make it ok for a felon to vote after release from prison or whatever ..If he can exercise the voting right why not the right to own a firearm? He has paid his debt to society ..right?? Stupid laws are just that stupid.


If you believe that bull about the nics check etc..then you aren't as smart as I thought you were. The reason for the nics check is control. Pure and simple. The 1968 gun control act had a purpose to begin with..Control of gun sales and who they were sold to. It was already illegal for a felon to own a firearm. But there had been 2 Kennedy's(POLITICIANS... you get it?) killed by lunatics so they had to have a way to control sales. Why should we have to have a nics check for private to private sales?? To be really honest I don't have too much of a problem with these stupid checks except for the underlying reason for them. A little control is better than none in politicians eyes...then they can extend it just a bit with a little regulation or law here and there and before you know it..not just regulation but registration. Have you ever read the 1968 GCA. In some areas it is a word for word copy of the 1938 gun control act passed by Nazi Germany. We all know how that turned out don't we? You being an attorney seem to trust your fellow attorneys in the State and Federal Legislatures. I on the other hand DO NOT. I feel we should have term limits of a max of 8 yrs..no PACs and NO lobbyists. Boy that would put a bunch of attorneys, ex congressmen and Senators out of work. Fabs the reason for these gun powder and ammo laws being in place is because the elected people in place want to stay there and they want to be able to control us. No I'm not a conspiracy theorist. When was the last time Big government did something to really help the American TAX PAYING citizen. And as far as paying for free speech that answer about the internet is not what I meant and you know it. Twisting words to suit your ideas doesn't change what I meant. If they can charge you to exercise one Right..the government can charge for any other right. Sorry my friend..but ridiculous regulation and stupid laws don't really help the people of this country..it just hinders freedoms in a very basic way. Trust the gummit..They know what is BEST for you.

You can have 5 lbs of Smokeless powder...and 5 lbs of black powder in Md.. Why is it possible to buy an 8 lb container in Md? I wasn't asking if you had a license to have powder. I was talking of the other license..your reloading license. As far as the Explosives law...I guess the bull with Homeland security has changed things but that law pertained to Explosives in Md. Smokeless powder was not considered an explosive. It was considered a flammable solid(and not as dangerous as gasoline) and is still treated that way in interstate commerce by DOT regulation. That law meant Black Powder(an explosive although a low yield one) when it was passed oh so many years ago.. If you went to buy BP you had to sign for it..just as you had to sign for dynamite previously. That is when I quit selling BP. Oh BTW how much smokeless powder can you tranport in a private vehicle and how much powder can you have in a private residence?

As far as paying the OBGYN for a delivery when he wasn't there...You are the attorney. Refuse to pay and take it to the ins co. Heck Fabs Getting big government to run health care is a real head up the arse approach. You yourself have said in the past that Social Security is broke..Why is that?? Big giovernment keeps using the money for other head in the sand social programs. and more stupid laws. More laws and more regulation leads inevitably to more and more taxes and less and less people paying. We as a nation need legislators who care more for the nation and it's people rather than themselves and the power they have

[fabsroman]

I'm not going to do the research for the powder transport questions, if that is alright with you.

Regarding term limits, I agree completely with you. Nobody should be able to make a career out of being a politician. Now, what we need is for EVERYBODY in this nation to vote out those that are in power right now. Do you think that will happen. Heck no, because the Republicans will be worried that the Democrats will gain control and the Democrats will be worried that the Republicans will gain control, and I am not talking about the politicians worrying about it, I'm talking about the voters worrying about it.

Regarding lobbying, I am against that too. I don't see why we cannot elect somebody to put these things on the floor of Congress, allow them to vote for it to make it an Amendment, and then make it public how our Representatives and Senators vote on it. Good Lord, that would be some serious change. Mind you, the Supreme Court has recently held that big business can endorse any candidate they want, and advertise on that candidate's behalf, because that is freedom of speech. So, we can't get rid of big business completely.

As far as government wanting to "control" me, good Lord. That gun legislation you wrote about is older than me, and where is the control? If this country turns into a gun grabbing country like Nazi Germany, I think there will be a lot more problems than what records they have on people. Plus, how hard is it really to hide a gun? You don't even need to keep all of them at your residence. So, if we get to that point, at which I am sure you will give them the bullets before the gun, are you really that worried because you would probably die anyway by fighting a completely corrupt government that it out of control and is probably a dictatorship at that point. About the only thing I can really see bringing that about is the national debt and ridiculous inflation.

The reason nothing gets done in government that is beneficial is because of all the fear mongering on both sides of the aisle, and I am talking about voters. Another reason is that because the majority of Americans are uninformed and/or ignorant. Death panels, please.

My issue with health care is that the cost of health care is growing faster than GDP, and at an alarming rate. If that continues, and it is supposed to, this country is doomed and/or nobody but the rich will have health care. A health care bill might not pass now, but wait until Medicare is cut, or eliminated, and more working stiffs are without health insurance. When the number of people without health insurance becomes the majority, you can bet that a health care bill will get passed and it will probably be single payor at that point.

Do you think the cost of health care is going to go down, or remain even.

As far as your smart ass comment about the OBGYN not actually delivering a baby, there is an agreement with all OBGYN's practicing at the hospital that they will take turns being the "house" OBGYN and covering each other's asses, so my OBGYN gets to bill for that. $4,800 is still ridiculous and I am not at all happy about how it went down. If I post about how my wife's OBGYN was late and the reason for it, I will be here all night.

Just so we are clear on this, I am all for common sense legislation. In fact, if I decide to run, I'm not going to run on a platform of "Hope and Change", but on "Common Sense and Long Term Stability".