200 grain .38 Special?

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I remember reading an article from way back where a fellow was looking for a good defensive round for use in a snubby .38. Some of the things he tried were loading hollow base bullets backwards, loading lighter bullets, multiple ball rounds, ect. What he settled on was a cast 195 grain bullet at modest velocities.....he stated that the round was only barely stabilized by the rifling from the short, 2" barrel and would tumble when it hit flesh.
Any thoughts on this? I have some 200 grain RN slugs that I bought for my Vaquero in order to try and get it to hit to POA; thought I might play around with them and see.

[Jack]

I wonder how he 'knew' that his 200 grain load would tumble when it hit flesh? That sounds to me more like a 'guess' than a 'know'.
Back in Thee Olden Days, when jacketed pistol bullets were relatively new, most of them didn't expand much at typical non magnum pistol velocities. BTW, 30 years ago or so, I tested a whole bunch of jacketed pistol loads for expansion in various medium, so I'm working from a 'know' rather than a 'guess'.
One classic old load was the 'backwards wadcutter'. A hollow base wadcutter was seated with the large hollow base cavity pointed out- and that load would expand at typical snubby velocities.
Today, things are quite a bit different. There are lots of loads and components designed to work at non magnum pistol velocities, and most do. One of the first ones was the Winchester Silvertip bullet, and that's still around. Many of the new technology bullets, like the Hornady XTP and the Speer Gold Dot, also work at lower velocity. I believe it's Speer that makes a 135 grain load specifically for snub nose 38's.
Something else to think about: most snubbies have fixed sights. One thing you want to do is find a load that shoots to point of aim, as you found out with your Vaquero. You'll have to try the 200 grain bullet to see if it shoots anywhere near POA.
As far as stopping power, the 200 at snubby velocities wouldn't be my first choice- I'd try some of the current bullets like the ones mentioned - most are available in weights of 158 or less.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Thanks for your insight, Jack. To be fair, the article was written in the early 1980's, IIRC, back when (as you stated) the HPs weren't as reliable as they are today. I think he may have done some testing on ballistic gel, hence the 'tumbling in flesh' statement. I might even still have the article somewhere; if I get a chance, I'll look for it.
I did find that my favorite factory load (Remington +P 158 grain SWC-HP) shoots pretty close to POA with my Vaquero, so that load will most likely be on the gun belt. Shoots to POA in my Detective special as well!

Two things I did learn this past weekend: My 'fast draw' ain't so fast, and it's a lot easier to hit a man sized sillouette at 15 yards in the movies than it is for real when trying a fast draw.

[GoodOlBoy]

I personally would stick with 158 grain rnfp lead. It's a great round, nothing fancy, good accuracy and has as good a penetration as you are going to get from a 38 special.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

I pretty much stick with the tried and true bullets. Being a member of the OFC I have seen a lot of the next best thing come and then disappear. Why, because it didn't work. I suspect that is the case with a 200 gr 38 bullet. Like gob stick with a 158 grainer. Its about as good as it gets.

[Rapier]

The big heavy slow bullet in a snubbie is exactly what you want. Energy on target with control for the followup shot, and never, ever shoot once. If you carry a snubbie and must shoot, shoot twice, always. Practice two shots over and over again.
Ed

[PJgunner]

Not sure which 200 gr. RN bullet we're talking about but my best guess would be the Lyman #358430. You can duplicate the ole Winchester and Remington heavy police load with that bullet by using 3.5 gr. of Unique. That's one of the bullets I cast and right this moment there are five of those bulleted load in the chambers of the S&W M60 that I carry. At the distance the load would be normally used, hitting a bit high wouldn't hurt anything but the bad guy.
That was one of the loads I used to make up when I was loading ammo on a commercial basis. A deputy sheriff liked the old police load for his back up gun so I made him up 100 rounds. He was happier than a hog in mud. I've cast up some of those bullets as gifts to friends and they're always asking for more.
The Brits dropped the .455 Webley in favor of what they called the .38/200, the ols .38 S&W (not the .38 Spl.) with a 200 gr. bullet. They felt it was a fine manstopper. Me? I'd have stayed with the .455 if I had a choice. The load I gave should hit pretty close to point of aim. It does for me in my snubbies.
Paul B.

[Rapier]

Paul,
I use the cast 200gr RCBS FP GC or at times, the 200 Rem RN. But I prefer the 200 FP as it allows a bit more case capacity due to the flat point.

I too have loaded the 200 FP for friends in the department for their backup guns. It usually takes one trip to the range for the process to really take root and be appreciated.
Ed

[PJgunner]

Originally Posted by Rapier

Paul,
I use the cast 200gr RCBS FP GC or at times, the 200 Rem RN. But I prefer the 200 FP as it allows a bit more case capacity due to the flat point.

I too have loaded the 200 FP for friends in the department for their backup guns. It usually takes one trip to the range for the process to really take root and be appreciated.
Ed

Are you talking the RCBS #35-200-FP bullet? You'd have to really deep seat that one to make it fit. It, along with the Lyman #358315HP, anther bullet in the 200 gr. range made a round that's a bit too long for my S&W M60. They just barely clear in my S&W M28 .357 mag. using ,38 Spl. brass. I dunno if Lyman even makes the #358430 mold anymore although I did see loads for it in their #4 manual at Sportsman's warehouse. They were showing it as a plinking bullet for the .358 Win. as I recall. I have all three of the bullet molds mentioned as well as some other .35 caliber molds for rifles that arre way too heavy and too long for handgun use.
I've been giving some consideration to working up a stiff .357 mag. load with #358430 as I can seat it properly and have room for it in the cylinder without it's being too long. Might be a very interesting project.
Paul B.

[Rapier]

"Are you talking the RCBS #35-200-FP bullet? You'd have to really deep seat that one to make it fit."

Yes and yes you do. There are two items one must pay attention to, seating to the cylinder length and crimping the bullet over the ojive, without refrence to any manual, if using the 357 case. Now the 38 spl can be crimped into the crimping groove if trimmed correctly.

The other item is the choice of brass. Usually the RCBS FP bullet requires the use of brass / brass as even the thickness of a nickel coating will cause a bulge at the web that will prevent the loaded cartridge from fitting in the chamber.

I use H-110 in my loads and Federal 205m primers with a hard crimp. This is not a loading process for a novice.
Ed

[PJgunner]

"This is not a loading process for a novice."

I'll buy that.
Paul B.