Legally, Does My Child Have Rights?

[Andy L]

BTW, Im all for teachers dicipline. I offered to sign something one time to give permission to paddle. They wont do it.

This is different. Much different. My kid didnt do a damned thing.

[fabsroman]

"Fabs, so what your saying is its ok for cops to search whatever they deem necessary to solve a crime? If I remember correctly, your wife is a pharmacist? Should they come up short sometime, is it ok for the cops to detain your wife and frisk her, make her pee in a cup and search her car and purse? Is that ok with you? I mean hell, its just a short search to make sure shes not the culprit. Nothing personal."

Okay, now it is getting personal, even though you say it isn't. I never answered your question about the coach not being searched because I overlooked it. However, you have yet to provide any serious facts about the actual length of detention or the extent of the search even though I have asked twice. Yeah, the coach should have been a suspect too, but that really has nothing to do with what happened to your son and the rest of the kids. Would you have been okay with the entire thing if the coach was detained and searched too. Probably not, so that question is rather irrelevant. So, how about some details here about what actually happened, or do you plan on continuing to act like the media does and only provide us with enough facts to get us riled up and on you and your son's side? How far did the actual search go? Was it a mere emptying of the pockets and a search of bookbags and lockers? Did the security guard actually put his hands on your son? Was it an actual pat down where private parts were touched? Was it a strip search? Was it a cavity search? How long was the detention? Minutes? Hours? Days? I don't think you have provided any of that information.

So, my analogy about adults driving expensive cars is off point, but your analogy about my wife having to pee in a cup is on point? Do you mean to tell me that your son had such an invasive search performed. If so, I will sympathize with you. To clear something up, my wife had to piss in a cup before they would hire her at Target as a pharmacist, she signed an agreement stating that she was subject to random drug tests and would be fired if she turned up positive, and they do count all the narcotics every so often and if there is a substantial amount missing they do get into trouble.

Now, I'll try to make my analogy about the kid having every right to bring the watch to school a little more on point for you. I have seen numerous threads on here about treestands being stolen out of trees and even read a post about somebody's trophy mount being stolen from a tree it was hanging on in his backyard. I have also had a friend of mine's decoys stolen out of the field when he went to lunch. Yes, these people were naive to think that they could leave these things out and find them again, just like this kid was naive about wearing that kind of watch to school; however, I dare you to tell me that people shouldn't have the right to leave their stands in the woods and expect to find them the next day, that they shouldn't have the right to leave their decoys in the field when they go to lunch, or that I shouldn't have the right to leave something in my car and expect to find it in my car the next day. Again, this kid had every right to bring that watch to school, whether it was worth $300 or $50,000, and expect for the rest of the kids to treat it as his property and not steal it. Maybe not the brightest thing in the world to do, but he still had the right to do it. I have the right to leave my house and car unlocked and find everything in it after leaving it for a period of time. Now, that doesn't mean it is the brightest thing to do, but I do have those rights. That would be the right to property. Of course, there is also the right against unreasonable searches and seizures. The question is what is reasonable in this case.

Now, I have taken so much crap on this board about how attorneys are so quick to sue, and my response is usually that we cannot do a single thing without a client running to us wanting to do something in the first place. Andy, you completely fit that bill right now unless the facts are more egregious than I assume they are. Again, you haven't provided them and this hasn't made the national news, so I will have to assume that it isn't a federal case, pun intended. This is probably something that could be cleared up, or at least addressed, by going to a PTA meeting, talking directly to the principal, or writing a letter to the principal. I am dying to hear the facts and what your attorney actually suggests that you do.

Trust me, I don't like being searched one bit. The first time I flew to Florida to visit my in-laws, the metal detector went off. So, the guy was doing the wand test and he was informing me that if the wand went off I would have to go in a back room and remove my clothes so they could determine what the issue was. Lucky for me, the wand didn't go off because it happened to be my belt buckle. On another occassion, the x-ray machine couldn't see through my camera case, so it had to be swabbed by the bomb guys. Another time, while picking my wife up from the airport, I was randomly selected to have my car searched, and while I didn't like it at the time, I now understand it. Every time I fly and the airplane lands safely and I make it out of the airport safely, I am quite happy for the searches. I have also been pulled over late at night and been giving the roadside sobriety test even though I don't drink. I was completely coherent and my speach was completely perfect because I didn't drink a single thing that night, I never ever drive after having an alcohol, and I have never had more than two drinks in a night, so I felt a little pissed off at the time. However, I was 23 back then. Now, with the harm I have seen people cause drinking and driving, I think cars should come standard with an ignition interlock in them and if anybody is ever found guilty of drinking and driving they should be required to use one for the rest of their lives. I also think they should stop traffic on highways and do sobriety checks every once in a while. Nothing like a drunk traveling at 65 mph or more.

"Im all for catching the bad guy, but not for Nazi tactics in doing it. I wish you made the rules for my business though Fabs. I could just shoot em all and let god sort em out with your take on personal rights to get the truth at all costs."

Again, maybe I would side with you if more facts were provided. I am not for Nazi tactics, but what is considered Nazi tactics? Please provide the facts behind your conclusion that the security officer, or whomever that detained your son, was using "Nazi" tactics. Was the Chinese water torture used? Did they put the kids in front of bright lights and question them? Did they try to beat a confession out of them? Did they subject them to sleep deprivation? Did they have them spend long periods of time with no clothes on? Did they make them commit atrocities against their own religion (e.g., were the muslims and jews forced to eat pork)? Again, my analogy about the car and the watch is so far off base, but I'm sure your use of the term "Nazi" is right on point.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

I think they at the school should have just told the kid with the watch ..oh well, such is life..and went about doing nothing. Then dealt with it at the PTA or school board meeting as to why they do nothing to stop theft in schools..This probably would sure stop anyone else from even thinking about stealing from another. I'm sure knowing they might search my locker, pockets wouldn't stop me from taking things that aren't mine. How fair are our rights anyhow? I had to pee in a cup for drugs/ alcohol in order to keep my job. I earned money and paid taxes with it. My tax dollars were given to someone that got a free state check every month because they didn't want to work and....guess what?..They didn't have to pee in a cup or loose their free check if test positive like I would have if I did...Fair?....But it is their right...I lost mine when I got the job/ CDL...Now since the watch was taken from the locker room while they were in class, why wouldn't the person in charge of solving things not keep those that were there there?..I can't see them letting them out to hide it elsewhere first then expect to locate it. I think it was a good thing they stayed in the room and not leave because after the search of their locker, pockets etc they didn't find it so that made each and every one of them innocent of the crime...none of them were able to hide it elsewhere..Since when didn't a little scare put in ya as a kid not make you stop and think what might happen if you did decide later to take something?...I'm sure little johnny never did or does anything wrong...and I don't see a cavity search because how could little johnny hide a watch in those dark places?...I don't see him wanting it that bad....Drugs?..maybe but then again, we don't have a drug problem either anywhere... I sure wouldn't want them searching any kids locker to find drugs he was selling to the other kids in school...sure wouldn't want to hurt his feelings. After all he has a right to sell drugs or steal from others to pay for them....we are just too easy on the crooks and the rest of us have to pay for it in the long run...Just like guns. Criminals use them in a crime but they want to take ours....so again the innocent always pay in the end...bet the watch thief only got yelled at...or maybe not...might make him cry then the school would have to deal with his parents at the PTA or board meeting...Darn if ya do and darn if ya don't....so ...PUNT!

[Andy L]

I dont have alot of time to argue right now. Fabs, the line about your wife was not a shot in any way. We have argued enough that you should know that by now. I was trying to link something close to a family member to bring something you love in it so your not looking at it as just another client. I would love to save this discussion and talk again in 13 yrs when your emotionally tied to a child.

I have no intention of suing. Not now anyway. Im talking to the atty so I know what is the law here. I want to be completly in the right when I go talk to the principal, superintendent or schoolboard. So they cant just give me a load of bs and send me down the road and so Im not making false accusations. Is there something wrong with being informed before going into a serious conversation?

Ill give you all the details shortly.

Oh, and yeah, anyone should be able to bring an expensive watch to school at 12yrs old and not expect it to be stolen. My point is kids cant find their ass with both hands most of the time, let alone keep track of that. You will see. That was an ignorant thing to do.

Skeeter, thanks for the sarcasim. I was wondering when someone was going to show up with a case of the smart ass with nothing to add but dogpile and throw some cheapies. LOL

[Andy L]

One more quick note. Fabs, none of your comparisions are valid above. Being checked at a DUI checkpoint, searched at an airport, ect... are safety issues. Where was the safety issue here? No one was going to get hurt.

Next time something is stolen in your neighborhood, do you mind if the cops come over and search your property and person? Remember, there is a difference in protecting property and person. Your a lawyer....

Funny thing is, my sons not even upset about this. He didnt like it, but not pissed. Of course, he doesnt know anything about rights or being violated either. Thats my job, until hes an adult. Part of being a parent. Big part.

[fabsroman]

Andy, between Skeeters and your last post, I am laughing pretty good.

At the end of the day, I think the kid that stole the watch should be put up against the wall and egged by all the kids that were detained and searched. After that, he should be cained by the child that he stole the watch from. Honestly, I think we are too easy on crime.

Like Skeeter said, guns and drugs aren't the problem, people are. If we need a troop increase in Iraq, I say we send all the lifers over there to inspect the suspicious looking packages and vehicles. You want to commit a crime, well then you are going to give back to your country instead of receiving free room and board and three meals a day, you will work for your room and board and your food. Val and I might have gotten into an argument about this before, and I think I was on the other side of the fence, but that was before spending several days in Court this year watching criminals get off pretty lightly or watching criminals not really care about being sentenced to a month or a year in prison. One guy was telling me that Montgomery County's jail was a lot worse than DC's, and I think Montgomery County is a country club. They even have cable. Like I said, they should break rocks and dig holes all day long. What I wouldn't give to be able to sleep all day, play basketball, and work out all day, with absolutely no stress and three meals a day. Why would anybody want to leave. Heck, as the hispanic population increases in the prison system, they will probably start to build soccer fields in the prisons. I love soccer, so maybe I'll enroll sometime soon.

I don't care how many jails we need to pay for, we should be extremely tough on crime. Of course, I say this now and then I feel sorry for the poor bastard with 3 kids and a wife that has gotten caught for his 3rd DWI who is facing jail time, the loss of his job, and his wife and kids going hungry. However, maybe, just maybe, if we were tough on crime to begin with, he never would think about drinking and driving. My brother has had 3 DWI's, done a couple of weekends in jail for his third, and he still continues to drink and drive, and I have seen him in such bad shape a bunch of times behind the wheel that I wonder how the hell he actually gets home alive. Luckily, I don't hang out with him much lately because of his new girlfriend, so I worry less about who he is going to kill or whether or not he is going to kill himself (i.e., out of sight out of mind).

As far as being informed about what you are going speak to the principal about, I applaud you. There is nothing better than being completely informed about something beforehand. If I get some time this afternoon, I'll try to do some research to help you out.

Okay, you snuck that last post in while I was typing my book. Yes, you are right, there is a difference between protecting property and protecting life. In my state you cannot kill anybody to protect property, but you can kill them to protect yourself if there is nowhere you can retreat to or you happen to be in your home. The details are a little more complicated regarding the use of deadly force to protect oneself, but that is the only time you can kill somebody. I don't know how I would feel about being stopped and searched for missing property. If the officer took it too far, I am sure I would be pissed. I definitely wouldn't allow an officer to come into my house and search it without a search warrant. Probably wouldn't even open my trunk for the officer if he didn't have probable cause. Probably wouldn't mind a road block if they had a description of a burglar and they were checking cars out to see who was in them. Yeah, that is a small inconvenience, but if they catch the guy I am all for it. The level of the inconvenience compared to what they are trying to accomplish is what I am looking at. If they are looking for a murderer, then I think they should have more latitude than if they are looking for the stolen Hope diamond, than if they are looking for a stolen pack of bubble gum; however, the law doesn't work that way.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

OH ok Andy, I see how you are now. Because I didn't think it was wrong for them to try to find the kids stolen items or agree with your words, my 2 cents is 'dog pile'???... Says a lot about you my good man. You ask peoples opinion then call it ' dog pile'???? Geez....thought more of ya my good man.....anyhow I still feel these kids these days have been given too much slack and not held responsible for their actions....I had to deal with a 17 yr old child up a few houses from me that was a terror of the whole neighborhood....vandal big time....all he needed was a little attitude adjustment....and it only came down to words and a good chase around the block once..was all he needed....so how can you say my thinking these kids now days need more guidance and taught right from wrong or even in your case shown what trouble it can be to take what isn't yours in the first place so they wouldn't even think of doing such a thing.....I have raised 2 kids...both hold professional jobs. Both were Honor students and did about everything there was to do in school. They were taught respect of others and others property....not by violence either....just examples....even if it was ....dog pile I taught them....but by the way...it isn't my kid that had trouble in school.....lmao....

[Andy L]

Nope, not saying your opinion is a pile. I said I was waiting on someone to dog pile on, as in jump in the fray. Misunderstood. Maybe I didnt word it clearly.

I see alot about you too, Skeeter, "my good man". Its in the way you answer. It seems you like to use sarcasim and in your face type answers. That speaks volumes to me. Of course, I could be reading your writing wrong as well. Pretty hard to tell sometimes in this 2D medium of the internet. However if I was right, I dont care for people who cant just state an opinion, but feel the need to make smart ass remarks and sarcasim to get a point across. Either feel the need or know no other way to talk. Either way, it tells alot about a person.

I wanted all opinions of anyone who wants to answer. If I didnt, I wouldnt have posted it on a public forum. Your opinion matters to me as much as anyone elses. I just didnt appreciate the way you said it, my good man.

Balls in your court.

I went back and read. I didnt word it clearly. Should have read I was waiting on some smartass remarks and someone to start a dogpile, throwing cheap shots.

Like that better? Now you can still be pissed and smart off to me in a reply, but for the correct reason.

BTW, Skeet, I applaud you for raising good kids. Im trying to do the same. You would be hard pressed to find any kids that are more respectful to elders and property than mine. They are diciplined and I want them diciplined in school. When they do something wrong. Not ran over by an overzealous SOB that probably is only working there because he cant get a job anywhere else. I repeat. My kid did nothing wrong. He actually helped more than anyone. Im pissed by the way he was treated.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

someone was going to show up with a case of the smart ass with nothing to add but dogpile and throw some cheapies

Well Andy I don't know..the direct statement above taken from what ya said pretty much sounded like a direct shot to me..Heck, I even had to pick myself up off the floor after that and dust myself off....lol...The only thing maybe you mistook in what I said in my first post was about little johnny not doing anything wrong...I sure do hope you didn't think I was referring to your little one as johnny..a more direct phrase would be some people think their kids do nothing wrong ever and to be more direct in those words, I didn't say this is how you feel...ok?..and what I said about I don't know because it wasn't my kid in trouble only means if I were in your shoes and it was my kid, maybe my feeling would be different.
I do tend to leave what I call food for thought lots of times in a post...comes from my grand-pap I guess...after talking to him it took about an hr or so to realize what he was talking about..believe me I might not be the smartest man on HC but the way I put my words here isn't a lack of intelligence either..but some people have to have the alphabet written with all 26 letters while others can cover it by saying from A to Z, I wish to thank you for bringing the way I post to my attention..I do believe we only see what we are looking for in a person. Does that last statement make any sense to you?....I never wish to beat anyone up with sarcasm even if it sounds like that..sorry...If ya only look for the bad you will never see the good....I wish you and yours luck with this problem. sorry I butted in. Have a nice day today.

[fabsroman]

Alrighty then, enough of this hugging and kissing amongst the three of us. LOL Let's get back to debating some serious stuff, like which cartridge is the best whitetail cartridge, or how many eggs the detained kids should be allowed to chuck at the offender, or how many times the victim gets to cain the offender.


Andy,

You probably deal with a lot more crappy, for lack of a better word, people in your profession than I do in mine because criminal stuff is only a small portion of my practice. Thing is, the small amount that I do deal with has been bugging the heck out of me lately. I have no idea how you deal with these people all the time.

[BILLY D.]

Hey Skeeter

Your not the only one that had trouble with a Grandfathers old sayings. There was stuff he told me when I was a kid that I never figured out till I hit my late 20's or so.

He once told me in the late forties or early 50's that someday the United States and Russia would exchange ends on the political spectrum. At the time all I could think was "the old man finally blew his cork".

Well I'll be dang if it ain't happening as we speak. Russia is becoming more democratic and we, the U.S. is becoming more Socialistic.

Another good one was one summer day the girl from across the street and I were picking grapes out in Grandpa and Grandmas yard and there was a swing there underneath the grape trellis and we were talking like kids do and I fell in love. Or thought it was anyway. So I gave her a peck on the cheek. Guess who came around from the other side of the trellis? YUP. Grandpa. Julie, the girl was so embarassed she about went up in smoke, and she absented the yard post haste. After she was out of hearing Granpa lit into me like a Southern Baptist preacher on a pulpit. He asked me if that was the girl I wanted to spend the rest of my life with? I said gee Gramps it was just a little peck on the cheek and I'm only xx years old. He said "thats how things get started". Sheesh, scared the heck out of me. Two days later I kissed her again on the school bus. I don't know if it was love or just a mean streak directed at my Grandpa.

I would have spent the rest of my life with her but it just didn't work out that way.

Best wishes, Bill

[Nulle]

Lockers are the schools property and they will do what they want with them anytime they want.

[Andy L]

Yeah, I figger as much on the lockers. Im more concerned with his person, not the locker. I would think the gym bag and clothes would be questionable too.

Nulle, would you feel comfortable doing what this guy did? Just going in and threatening a room full of kids and patting them all down, twice? Would you feel comfortable or feel like somethings just not quite right about this? Knowing that all but one, maximum, or in this case all were innocent. Accusing them all.

Would YOU be ok with that?

[huntingvet]

I've gotta side with Fabs on this one. Maybe its just out here in CA but the school system is swayed so heavily toward the rights of the individual student and away from the good of the whole student body.

My neighbor is a retired LA County Sheriff Deputy after having worked 20+ years in the county jail system. He now works part time as a substitute teacher. He intentially only works in less desirable neighborhoods because he believes he can offer more help to kids there. However, one day he got in trouble when he escorted a kid out of the classroom by holding his arm (I'm sure firmly) after the kid spit in his face. He chooses not to work for that district anymore.

Everyone is arguing to either put ourselves in the kids' shoes or the the shoes of the kid that lost his watch. Has anyone considered the school's or the security guard's? What would you do? What if the kid that lost the watch is one of the meekish, shyest kids that comes to you and says he lost his watch he inherited from his recently deceased grandpa? Not knowing its fair market value he brought it to school to show a friend or even a teacher. Would you want to keep all the kids in that room there to ask them to empty their pockets, gym bags and open their lockers? I don't want to call your kid a liar but couldn't a situation like that get misreported to a concerned parent as their kid was frisked, yelled at and accused?

Now I know the watch wasn't that sentimental but does it have to be?

[fabsroman]

HuntingVet, I love that third paragraph.

There used to be a day when a child got punished at school and a parent told the child "You must have done something to deserve it" and left it at that.

Now, parents ask the child, "Did you do anything wrong?" Obviously, the child isn't going to fess up to the parent and admit that he/she did do something wrong. For instance, when my brother got detention for making a flame thrower out of a aeresol (sp.) deodarant can, for crazy gluing the teacher's grade book to the desk, for throwing another student's bookbag out the second story window, or the other myriad of things he got detention for, do you think he would admit what he did to my parents? Heck no.

Now Andy, I'm not saying that your son did anything wrong, I'm just agreeing with HuntingVet that schools and teachers have one heck of a time nowadays.

My idea of detention is hard labor. Why spend money on independant contractors to paint and clean schools. Save the money to give it to teachers and have the delinquent kids paint, clean, take out the garbage, etc. after school. Maybe that will get them to pay attention in class a little better and make them study a little harder.