EMERGENCY ALERT! Mexico Military Raid a home in Phoenix, Arizona - Page 3

fabsroman · #31 07-05-2008, 11:39 AM

I think that most of the illegal immigrants are hard workers. Granted, they are poor, but they are still hard workers that will try to make ends meet. The few bad ones are the ones that give the rest of them a bad name.

I would prefer to have all of them registered, trackable, and paying taxes versus working as illegals. Simply shipping all of them back probably will not work because finding all of them is the problem. Giving them a way to become a citizen and closing off the border at the same time, would be the best way to solve this. Of course, anybody that has a bad criminal record would need to go back.

We should also crack down on businesses that hire them. Over 300 illegals were found at a chicken processing plant somewhere in the midwest I believe, and while they were rounded up and the small town was decimated of its population, not a single fine was levied against the corporation, even though each instance carries a $25,000 fine. Maybe, just maybe, if the federal government were to enforce these fines against big business, big business, and maybe small business, would think twice about hiring illegals. For the past couple of years, businesses have been able to access the SSA records to verify SS#'s upon hiring people, so why do we still have this problem? It is because the illegals are willing to work hard for very little money.

As far as medicaid and welfare are concerned, those are problems in and of themselves.

Larryjk · #32 07-05-2008, 12:51 PM

fabsroman, I hear what you are saying, especially about the corporations not getting fined for hiring illegals. But, I can't go along with giving illegals citizenship. There are all kinds of "legal green carded" workers from other countries that came here to work legally. They don't expect citizenship, but would certainly stay if they could become citizens.
I can't see rewarding people with citizenship who come here illegally and many have absolutely no alliegence to this country, in fact hate it. Many Mexican illegals feel they should have a right to be here because the southwest was once a part of Mexico. The last President down there filled their heads with that BS.
I saw a large road coming down to the Rio Grande, with a large turn around at the end, and asked what it was. Our landowner host said that was where the govenment bus (Mexican)brings people to let them make illegal entry into the US. That kind of BS shouldn't be allowed, but it was on the "other" side of the river.

fabsroman · #33 07-05-2008, 07:03 PM

It really is a tough situation. I've dealt with plenty of south americans that want nothing more than to become a part of the US, and they have nothing bad to say about it. Yes, I agree that there is a lawful way to do this and they should have followed it, but we have a problem on our hands that isn't very easy to solve.

Kind of like giving tax amnesty to those who fraudulently filed their taxes or didn't file taxes at all. Why should they be given amnesty when the rest of us paid our taxes on time? Why shouldn't they be thrown in jail?

If we allow the "good" illegals a time period to become citizens and require them to jump through a couple of hoops to accomplish it (e.g., learn English, learn about the US, have a clean criminal record, pay some arbitrary amount in illegal taxes, and rat out those that hired them illegally), then maybe we can solve this problem to a certain degree. On top of that, we could fine the heck out of the companies that hire them, and maybe that might just put an end to all of this. If illegals cannot find employment in the US, then I am willing to bet that they will not want to make the trip over here.

The problem is what do we do with the ones that are already here? If they cannot find employment anymore, do you think they will just merely get on the next bus to Mexico or whatever their home country is? If they have little kids to feed, don't you think that some might resort to crime to make ends meet? Would that be any better for our country?

The illegal immigration issue isn't a black and white issue, except for closing off the border. That matter should be clear as day. Close off the border and then figure out what to do with those that are already here.

skeet · #34 07-05-2008, 09:39 PM

Sorry but I have to disagree. The illegal problem is just that...a black and white issue.. OK if you want to give the "good" illegals some points for being good..fine. BUT send them home and make 'em apply for LEGAL immigration. Or let them come here, acquire a green card and them come work....and pay taxes and abide by our laws. Too many don't abide by our laws...and we as tax paying citizens pay for them. BUT to give them a free pass just because they are good people is wrong. How about all the ones who did it legally. Your parents came here legally.. So did my great grandparents on my fathers side. They learned the language and assimilated themselves into society. That is NOT what is happening here. These people are coming here at the behest of their OWN governmentin many cases. It is not just about a better place to live. It is about money and control..power if you will. Sure some come to make a better life for themselves...but wayyy too many send most of that good ol US currency out of this country. What would happen to... say... Mexico... if the flow of cash stopped?? Think of it. Giving a pass to US citizens on tax filing is one thing... Giving anything to ILLEGAL aliens is not right! Look at so many that drive an illegally tagged car..no insurance..no license and have killed citizens with those cars. What do they do to them?? The driver may go to jail..or maybe get deported. The passengers get ...released

fabsroman · #35 07-06-2008, 08:25 AM

Skeet,

It isn't a black and white issue because it isn't as easy as waving a magic wand and sending them all back from whence they came. The problem is finding all of them to send them back.

I was over in Church Creek a couple of weeks ago for a time trial that my cycling team was putting on. I had to road guard a couple of corners along with a couple of officers. One of the officers told me that he had a hispanic man admit to him that he was illegal, so he called INS to see what they wanted to do about it. INS told him that they would not bother with it unless he had 10 or more illegals to process. Honestly, I don't understand that.

I have also seen illegals go through our legal system, and they do not even get deported. I do not understand why it is so hard for INS and law enforcement to get on the same page about this. If somebody gets arrested, you determine if they are legal or not, and if not, they get sent to INS after their Court hearing and/or they serve their time in jail. For some reason, this is extremely hard to accomplish and I am betting because there is a bunch of red tape and hoops that need to be jumped through.

In an ideal world, yes, all the illegals should be deported, the budget should be balanced, the nations deficit should be paid back, and trade deficit should be a surplus, Toyota would not be the #1 car manufacturer in the world, we would have cars running on alternative fuel. The problem is figuring out how to accomplish all of this. Yes, the ideals are black and white, but the process of getting there is the problem and the really gray area.

skeet · #36 07-06-2008, 08:36 AM

Hate to say it...but now you are talking just like a lawyer. Of course those are ideals..but it is still a black and white issue. Just because no one in the power grid wants to take the bull by the horns doesn't mean it is gray. Red tape? Of course it is. Stupid?? Of course it is What is so hard with sending them back home. If they have any money...use their own money to pay for the trip back across the border..sheesh.Need a lawyer for them?? Why?? They are illegal!! sheesh

skeet · #37 07-06-2008, 09:21 AM

I am not going to post this link on Hunt Chat but go to you tube and type in the Guy from Boston..Harsh laws. You may not like the guys language but listen to what he says. Might be time to go along with those (common sense??)rules

Larryjk · #38 07-06-2008, 03:45 PM

I have a cousin in the real estate business in the metro Phoenix area. Since the new laws that Arizona passed, and is enforcing, on hiring "illegal" aliens have come into effect. there is a sizable vacancy in rentals.
Seems there was a mass scurrying for the border when the word got out about the new laws.
My grandson is going to Arizona State and he said rentals are a lot easier to find and a lot lower priced. Supply and demand.
It has become noticable by the government on both sides of the border that the new laws had a sizeable impact. They are not happy about it south of the border because it has put a burden on what few services they have.

Aim to maim · #39 07-06-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fabsroman
..... INS told him that they would not bother with it unless he had 10 or more illegals to process. Honestly, I don't understand that.

I have also seen illegals go through our legal system, and they do not even get deported. I do not understand why it is so hard for INS and law enforcement to get on the same page about this. If somebody gets arrested, you determine if they are legal or not, and if not, they get sent to INS after their Court hearing and/or they serve their time in jail. For some reason, this is extremely hard to accomplish and I am betting because there is a bunch of red tape and hoops that need to be jumped through.

INS (ICE) is grossly understaffed and underfunded, and yes, there is a bunch of red tape and hoops to be jumped through. In most instances, it is not a matter of ICE agents not wanting to do their jobs.

Aim to maim · #40 07-06-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fabsroman

...The problem is what do we do with the ones that are already here? If they cannot find employment anymore, do you think they will just merely get on the next bus to Mexico or whatever their home country is?...

A significant number of them would do exactly that. See Larryjk's post below. We had a similar phenomenon is my town a few months back. A major employer stopped hiring and dismissed several hundred illegal aliens under threat of sanctions. Rental vacancy rates elevated considerably and some businesses that catered to illegals closed shop. Interestingly, the number of calls that the police department had to respond to plummeted.

fabsroman · #41 07-06-2008, 10:05 PM

What kills me is that we already have a federal law in effect that levies a maximum fine of $25,000 per illegal. If that were enforced, I don't think we would have any problems with employers giving illegals jobs. If the chicken factory with 300+ illegals were fined accordingly, that would have been $7.5 million. If that didn't drive them out of business, it would make them think twice about hiring another illegal. The feds should really take some heat for that one, which they did in the media. There wasn't a problem with shipping the illegals back in that case, just a problem with fining the employer. As far as I am concerned, the problem lies with the employers.

skeet · #42 07-06-2008, 10:48 PM

If the companies were fined for this hiring practice...it would help tremendously. BUT there is another problem. Where would the company get people to work?? We need to cut the payment of welfare to people who are ABLE to work but choose not to. They will NOT starve. Guess what?? They will actually find a job. If we need to address this problem in a way that we would have to call it work fare..OK. Welfare for those who are NOT able to work...Not one penny for the rest. One child on welfare..Have a second and you lose the money for the first...and lose them both to adoption....or have the ladies tubes tied after the first. Harsh , you say?? How many children did you have? How many can you support. Well if you had the normal average...you are supporting every other one that is born...even if they are not yours. Is that right. Yep..it is harsh but it does make sense. We cannot afford to pay for all the welfare kids and the illegal kids and our own too. It just goes against all common sense. But wait till Obama is president...he'll find a way to pay for all this...but it will be more coming out of YOUR pockets. That is his brand of change... More taxes to pay for the ones who choose not to work. Now I am going to bed. Got to get over my rant!

fabsroman · #43 07-07-2008, 08:06 AM

You will never be able to have a mother's tubes tied and you will almost never be able to take kids away from a mother/father unless they are really unfit parents. The first is unconstitutional and rather harsh because that mother might eventually get her stuff together and want more kids. The second just doesn't happen very easily.

With that said, I am all for getting rid of Welfare, Section 8 housing, and a bunch of other programs for all those other than the ones that CANNOT work. However, getting rid of those programs will end up hurting the children, but if you get rid of those programs, maybe it will be easier to show that the parents are unfit to raise their children, and the children can be put up for adoption to better adoptive parents that will show the children how to work for a living and save for the things they want.

Welfare and government handouts are a big mess. Kind of like the government bailing out everybody that is going through foreclosure. People need to learn the hard way. 100 years ago, if you had a bunch of kids and didn't take care of them, they died. Plain and simple. People weren't having kids for increased welfare benefits, but truly understood the responsibility of having a child.

skeet · #44 07-07-2008, 09:57 AM

Can't be done...at least not in the societal atmosphere we have today. I also know that those things were done in the past. In Maryland no less. I saw more than one kid taken from their parents. Know why it was done?? Because they needed to be taken. Not because the kids were beaten or any thing like that. Nope. They were taken because they couldn't provide the basics for their own kids. This happened right on the eastern shore in the late 50's early 60's. I saw it. I also knew of a few women whose tubes were tied...not by the gummit...but by a caring doctor(he did this clear into the mid 70's). This was of course before the welfare state got going like it is now. There wasn't a whole lot of work available in the late 50's through the 60's on the eastern shore. June July and August the black and white folk who needed to work were waiting on the corner in the little town where I lived..waiting for the farmers who had straw or hay cut and baled. Provided a little money to someone who wanted to work or ones who needed the money. By the mid to late 60's I was almost alone on that corner. Welfare changed people that quickly. There was a lot of seasonal work in those times. The Eastern shore was an agricultural area ya know? My father even provided work for a person or two(plus unpaid me). He was a waterman. And when I was in school he needed help. The world was a different place then...where the people did not and could not depend on the government to do for them. Time to go back to those ideals..Past time in fact! Just as a note...many families that had a lot of children...especially farm folk had them to do the work necessay on a farm. They raised their own food...and took care of their own. It was a hard life...but usually a pretty good one too.

Larryjk · #45 07-07-2008, 11:05 AM

Skeet, "Where would we get the people that want to work"?
There are all kinds of workers from countries all over the world who are waiting in line just to get here to work. They are coming under work visas and being very legal, going back after the visa and permits run out. The reason why they comply is so that they can come back again. Some want to stay here and others just want to come here to work and then go back to their native country. I don't have a problem with either type because they are following the law.
Most of the imported labor around here used to be illegals from south of the border. Now we are getting groups on work permits from Europe and the Far East. Even had a group from South Africa. Mostly students who work in motels and resturants. Usually very pleasant and trying to learn our version of english.